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COMMUNITY TOWN HALL: Standing Together Against Bullying: Creating Respectful, Safe, and Supportive Professional Communities in Scholarly Publishing
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COMMUNITY TOWN HALL: Standing Together Against Bullying: Creating Respectful, Safe, and Supportive Professional Communities in Scholarly Publishing
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Segment:0 .
Hello, everybody.
Welcome as you come in, please put your name into the chat and let us know where you're coming in from. I'll give it a few minutes before we get started.
Happy to see so many friendly faces and names in here. All right I'm going to go ahead and get started. So thank you all. And welcome to today's town hall standing together against bullying, creating respectful, safe, and supportive professional communities and scholarly publishing.
My name is Randy Townsend. I'm an associate professor in George Washington University's master of Professional Studies and publishing program, and co-facilitator of mental health community of interest network, the Scholarly Kitchen chef and the past president of the Society for Scholarly Publishing. Before we get started, I have just a few housekeeping items to review. Attendee microphones have been muted automatically.
Please use the Q&A feature in Zoom to enter questions for the moderator and panelists. You can also use the chat feature to communicate directly with other participants and organizers. Closed captions have been enabled. If you don't see the CC icon on your toolbar, you can view captions by selecting the More option on your screen and choosing Show Captions in the dropdown menu.
This 90 minute session will be recorded and available to registrants following today's event. Registered attendees will be sent an email when the recording is available. A quick note on SSPS code of conduct for today's meeting. We are committed to diversity, equity, and providing an inclusive meeting environment that fosters open dialogue and the free expression of ideas free of harassment, discrimination, and hostile conduct.
We ask all participants, whether speaking or in chat, to consider and debate relevant viewpoints in an orderly, totally respectful and fair manner. SSP is committed to complying with competition and antitrust laws. Please avoid any discussions of pricing, market allocation, boycotts or other topics that could be interpreted as anti-competitive. If any such discussions arise, they shall be stopped immediately to protect both individual participants and the organization.
My co-host and co-facilitator of the mental health community of interest network, Jennifer rogala, will be joining us shortly. Before introducing the panelists, I want to share a few statistics to give context to this discussion. Workplace bullying affects nearly 75 million people in the United States, including both the targets and those that witnessed the experiences.
And 62% of cases targeted employees end up leaving their job, while the perpetrator remains employed 70% of the time. 45% of victims experience stress related health issues, such as anxiety, insomnia, and depression. One in 5 bullied workers report suicidal ideation and 60% develop a long term mental health issues.
60% of bullying victims don't report incidents because they fear retaliation, while 30% fear reputational damage and 65% of workplace bullying victims are female, and 50% of remote workers experience bullying through digital tools like emails and Slack. At this time, I'd like to give our special guests an opportunity to introduce themselves. First up is David Allen.
Thanks, Randy, I appreciate it. My name is Dave Allen. And I am currently a director for the International Society of managing and technical editors. Just started on the board and very happy to be here. I've been in publishing for too many years now, and I it started out as a, you know, on the society side before moving to commercial, then getting into consulting, and recently started my own consulting firm with my partner, Megan McDevitt, called A&M editorial solutions.
Thank you David. Next up is Emily Gunn. Hi, I'm Emily Gunn, I'm the journal's director for the American Society of Clinical Oncology. I'm also the current president of the Council of Science Editors. Thank you, Emily. And finally, Rebecca McLeod. Hi, everyone, I'm Rebecca McLeod.
I am the current president of SSP, and I also work at the Harvard Data Science initiative, where I am the managing director of its publishing program. I'm very pleased to be here representing SSP, and I want to quickly Thank again both Randy and Jennifer for organizing this important event. And a shout out to all of you in the chat who are saying they are zooming in from snowy places. I'm from, I'm in Boston and I'm sick of this winter.
That's all I have to say. Right I want to just say, when Jennifer and I were having a conversation about what this town hall could be, we reached out to these particular leaders. They overwhelmingly responded with enthusiasm and support on participating in this discussion. And I just really want to take this moment to express our gratitude for you all joining us and being part of this conversation today.
It's so important. Actually, I was working on my slides last week and my daughter walked in and she said, why are you making slides about bullying. I said, well, I'm on a webinar next week. Really? why are you talking about that. And I explained that like, this isn't just something that because they talk about it in schools a lot now. And I'm like, it's not just something you need to talk about when you're school age.
Like you need to continue this conversation. It you know, it's always going to be an important topic. I think that's a great example. Emily, because they're learning from us that these conversations, they continue on. Right professional settings. Yep so and it's particularly, I think even challenging I think we talked about it when we met in our pre meeting in this time too because we have leadership in our country who act as bullies or as bullies.
So how do you how do you work, if that's the example that young people are getting, and/or reinforces bullying behavior. In the workplace. I think we're at a very particular challenging time right now. So I think having this conversation and then also getting listening to the audience, what they have to say are things really important.
Yeah to that point, too, Rebecca, Thank you for mentioning this. This is a town hall. So your questions for those that are attending, we want to hear from you. So please do ask some questions to the chat. If you have any questions that we can discuss here with these leaders. You know we'll vet them a little bit and see what they have to say about it.
You'll see that there's a poll going on right now. I think we have a couple more poll questions where we really do want you all to be active participants in today's conversation. So those that I know that are here, I'm expecting to see your responses. Wow all right. So I guess we can go ahead and get started. I want to start with some overarching themes that each individual organization represented here navigates independently.
So what formal policies or codes of conduct does your organization currently have in place that address bullying, harassment or professional conduct. And Emily's OK, I'll start with you. Sure Yeah. So the Council of Science Editors does have a code of conduct, and it doesn't use the word bullying.
I read it the other day as I was getting ready for this. And it does describe behaviors that could be considered bullying. Aggressive behavior, name calling, harassment, all those things. And it's pretty detailed, actually. It's quite lengthy about what our expectations are and what are the things that are simply not allowed. And it includes details about what to do if you see it happening, what to do if it happens to you.
It's and it's available right on our website. You can get to it like right from the home page. So it I, I feel like we've done a pretty good job of putting it front and center. We also remind attendees of that before certain events. I believe it's part of the registration process that you're familiar with the code of conduct, and you agree to abide by it. So it's definitely not just one of those policies that was written.
And then put on the shelf. It's something that is actively enforced and that we remind people of consistently. Excellent David. Sure I assume T also has a professional code of conduct, and again, that is posted on its website that covers conduct that, you know, from member to member also through know, meetings and events. And again, it, it the code of conduct doesn't specifically address, you know, bullying behavior, but really just being professional to one another.
But they iceemt is also released a, you know, position statement on bullying, harassment and professional conduct as well. I think it partly in response to the fact that, you know, it is a growing concern. And so. I, I agree with it. You know, been in these situations, you multiple times in my career.
And, you know, I always kind of stress, you know, being professional with one another. I have never lost by treating people with kindness and respect and, and just looking them at as a person and, and a fellow professional. Thank you. David Rebecca. Hi Yeah.
So as Randy started off today with reading the or part of the an abstract of sp's code of conduct, which we regularly read for every webinar, before every event, before our committee meetings as well. So it's something that I think we're very strong, we're feel strongly about. It outlines what we deem as acceptable and not acceptable behavior, and we do also have procedures in place.
I'm just putting things in the chat of what to do if you're reporting a violation and what happens and who do you go to. I think for many of us who are SSP members, we're used to seeing the short version. I think it's always good to familiarize yourself with the entire code of conduct, which I just put in the chat, and I can also put the procedures as well. I think sometimes we forget, you know, we see, we hear it, but we don't always like we need to be.
It needs to be reinforced. Yeah, Yeah. You're absolutely right. That reinforcement, I think, you know, I've said it on plenty of committee meetings and, you know, it's always a good reminder because it sets the tone for that particular experience. No matter.
You know, many of us hop from meeting to meeting. But when you walk into this room, whether in person or virtual, it's a reminder that this is a protected space and a safe space. Before we move on to the next one, Susan has the results of the poll, so I'd like to see what that looks like.
Wow, that is a very small percentage at the bottom there. Wow Thank you Susan. Thank you, Susan, for that. All right. So how are your policies enforced. And Rebecca, I'll just jump back to you on this one.
Because you are the chairs of the committees or whoever's convening the activity. They read the code of conduct. Are they expected to also enforce infringements or violations. I think during committee meetings, I think they are. And in fact, when we do, you know, every year we have orientation session for incoming, even returning co-chairs.
And part of that orientation involves carefully reading, going through the entire code of conduct, explaining what is, what is considered unacceptable and then also going through the procedure so everyone is clear. So I think during a committee meeting, I do think that it is their role to oversee, but also a staff person is usually, you know, on those calls as well. And they can also help enforce.
So there shouldn't be a situation where something happens and then no one knows what to do or no one, no one steps in. So I think it's just a matter of to just of arming, of giving that authority to committee chairs. You know, this is part of your role. To advocate for anybody or to stop anything that you see. That's unacceptable. Yeah and actually, to that end, Susan, I just put another poll question in the chat.
So when you have a second. Oh, Yeah. There you go. If people want to jump in here what they're doing that. Emily, when we're talking about bullying, we're not talking about like just somebody being mean or rude. Yeah so can you talk about that a little bit. Yeah, Yeah.
So you're right. There's a difference between someone's having a bad day and they, they say something rude to you and, and you know, we've all been there. Bullying is a persistent, ongoing, focused behavior. And when I say focused, I mean focused on one person or one group of people Someone you mentioned in the chat, the power imbalance. And that's generally what it is, someone who's in a much more powerful position.
Sort of being aggressive towards someone who's in a less powerful position. And I actually have something I want to share real quick. Let me just pull it up on my screen. That is. That speaks to that, to that idea that this is that there's a power imbalance. Oop, there it is.
Can I share. Yes so if you're familiar with the comic strip. By Nathan Pyle I forget what it's a strange planet that he drew this. And I always think it's really interesting. The two Eagles. Do you think owl is a predator? Of course not.
He's never bothered me. Exactly he says, I have no idea what Mr mouse is going on about. So clearly there's a huge power imbalance between an eagle and a mouse. And so the eagle, you know, they don't think that owl is a predator because he's not bothering them. But he's bothering the mouse because he's that much more powerful than them. So I always come back to that when I think about bullying and how so often it's one person trying to like, I don't know, pull their rank, so to speak, but persistently and in an ongoing way.
David Yeah, I, I agree with that. And I think that's been my experience with bullying in the industry multiple times. I had an executive director early on in my career that was just very toxic. And, you know, they were toxic in a way that was designed to get people to do what they wanted and/or to try to force an outcome that they wanted, regardless of whether or not it affected the employees.
And, you know, the striking thing about the health issues, I had panic attacks, you know, at the time that I thought were heart attacks because of that behavior. And so, you know, and I think a lot of that just tends to be, not just the power balance, but, you know, the bullying is designed in the workplace to get someone to behave in a manner that that person wants. And so they're so it can be a power balance.
Or it could be someone who's trying to establish power over you. Yes, as well. You know, it could be a colleague that is just using this to in some way force a behavior. And, you know, I see it a lot when, you know, just credit for work that's happened and, and, you know, you know, people can't give the proper credit to their colleagues or they take credit for something which, again, is creating a power imbalance and in the, in the space.
And so, you know, recognizing that is important. I personally tend to be a self deprecating. And I always try to, call out people who are doing the work because at least in my mind, you know, if they're doing a good job, it's supporting me as well. And so they need to be recognized for that. But, you know, a lot of times that that doesn't happen. But but the power imbalance, whether it's someone who's senior or whether it's someone who's trying to force you to act in a certain way, is to me that the biggest issue that I've seen over the years, I used to work with an editor who was absolutely a bully, and he would he would do this all the time.
He would send me an email where the subject line said, please call. And that was it. There was no message, no nothing, no indication of what he wanted. And his personality was such that he was not afraid to throw you under the bus to say really nasty things right up front. So when it's all it says is please call.
That's when you start shaking because you're going into the unknown. But the worst part about it is that I would immediately have to drop everything and call him, because if I didn't, he would start complaining to my boss and he would pick up immediately. So he was within arm's reach of his phone. He could have been the one to call me, but he didn't want that.
He wanted me to be scared and be the one to call him. And it was horrible. It was absolutely. It was the worst environment I've ever worked in. Working with him, I, I had a situation where a journal editor was a, was a bully and with emails I would be. This was back in the day when it wasn't always online. So I'd come into the office, turn on my computer, and I'd be terrified, thinking, what email did he send me overnight.
Right and one time I was sending, I would send, you know, messages about what's going on to all of the journal editors. And I made the mistake of sort of blind copying. I C everybody in my haste. So this guy then had the emails of the other journal editors and then started disparaging, I didn't know this, you know, until a little bit later that then he was, you know, making comments about the press, about me. But a couple of editors reached out to me and let me know.
But then one in particular, I guess, wrote back to this guy and defend and just said, you know, you're just crazy. You're just nonsense. Just stop it. And I'm ever grateful for that editor because he having it come from another editor like another peer, whatever. That made it much more powerful. And I'll just never forget that, because that wasn't an ally, but someone who had power, who could in that, in that case, you know, stop this guy, which we did.
OK Yeah. I would say one of the most toxic editor behaviors I've ever seen was for a colleague of mine, and the editor did not want to choose how which social editors to sign papers to us, and so gave a complicated list of two. The editorial assistant on how they should assign papers to the subeditors. So they purposely set this person up to fail in terms of.
They were not a subject matter expert, so they were going to make mistakes. And then every single time a mistake was made, they would call my colleague and denigrate them on the phone. Every single time. And so when I found out about it, I, I went to the, the director of publications and I flat out said, you tell him to hire a intern or a postdoc or someone who, if he doesn't want to do it, have someone who's a subject matter expert who might benefit from that experience do the work.
Because, I mean, that was such a toxic situation. I was thinking, we're going back to about colleagues or someone I think was Ashley in the chat, talked about, you know, what your situations where you have, one member of one team bullying another. And I think, I think it's something we had talked about before about trying to define what bullying is. Sometimes it's difficult because some person can perceive something as bullying in someone else, right?
Or if you're, you know, if someone's in the same peer group or whatever. But for colleagues, I think it can be tricky. How how do you how do you address it. You know, how do you. And it's usually someone, again, who wants to assert their authority. They can be insecure in some way. How do you address that.
Right you know, it's. I don't know, I guess it depends on the situation. So I don't know if you two have any ideas or anybody in the who in our audience and, you know, dealing with a colleague who's a bully, who doesn't have power over you but is trying to restrict that power over you. So I've been in that situation before, unfortunately. And it was really difficult because the bully was someone that I had previously considered a friend and was acting in a way that was truly awful to one of our colleagues who I then supervised.
It was really a matter of keeping a record of everything, because this person would say things in email that like, why would you put that in writing. But they did horrible things or just keeping notes. You know, I had a conversation with this person. They said things that they shouldn't have. And I wrote everything down. Or I talked to the person who was being bullied, wrote everything down.
So like keeping super careful records. And every time it happened, I would have to address it with the bully, which was even more awkward because this person was like 15, 20 years older than me, about ready to retire. And here I am, so much younger than them and having to be like, stop being a bully. And I had to be very clear with them. If you keep doing this, this is what's going to happen.
And eventually, I had to let him go, which was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do in my professional career. I never want to have to fire someone again. It was truly terrible. But we're very clear with him from the start. This is the expected behavior. This is how you have not risen to that expected behavior. And this is going to be the consequence if it continues.
And not even getting bogged down in the, this is, it makes this person feel terrible and like not even getting bogged down in the reasons why it's wrong, because his behavior was so clearly wrong that just being explicit and then following through on exactly what we said would happen. And calling him out, not being afraid to call him out. I agree, document, document everything. You know, even if it's a phone call, if it's a conversation, just write it down.
Establish a record of what's going on. So that you have supportive evidence. When you do go to someone else about the situation. Although this did trigger a memory of one of my first colleagues who was unintentionally bullying and had to be called out on it. Because they didn't recognize that they were doing it, and they did it because they'd had a traumatic experience with someone else who had, you know, quit previously.
And so anytime they saw any behavior that reminded them of that person. They went negative on others. And so that was a situation where I had to go to the director of publications and say, listen, this, this is what happened. This is what's happening. There's someone who's ready to leave. That is a really great employee.
And you know what? What we do about it. And, you know, that's the situation where the person who was unintentionally doing it, really nice person, had to be shown or had to talk it through and figure out why they were acting that way. But, you know, typically I just say document everything because once you're in a negative position, whether it's a colleague or someone in power, especially, a lot of times bullies are really liked because they, they, they manage upwards, right.
So their behavior is not above them. You know. And so you need to document, you need to have you need to have evidence and you just you need to go into that conversation very calm. And like, this is what's going on. It's not acceptable. And you know, if the organization doesn't support you, I hate to say it, then it is time to look elsewhere.
Yeah sorry, Rebecca. Real quick. Susan, can you launch the second pole. I was just saying the interaction about the importance of quoting the code of conduct. But what do we do when it's a journal editor or an author. I mean, do we think about putting a code of conduct in our author contracts or journal editor contracts. I mean, seriously, we did.
Oh, you did. OK Yeah. So then we wrote it into their contract that they are required to be collegial with staff. And we set out expectations for their behavior in that agreement. Unfortunately, that was the result of the editor I was just talking about. So, you know, it was a learning process.
But Yeah, we were very explicit. This is what we expect for your behavior. OK because my experience was so years and years ago before anyone even thought about a code of conduct. I mean, who would think that you would have to tell a grown adult this is how you're supposed to behave. But with the previous editor, ultimately it did go to the CEO, his behavior, and he was asked to apologize, which he did by saying, I'm very sorry that you made me mad.
Essentially was how it came back to us. But Yeah, we learned from that you have to just state it in Black and white. This is what we expect from you for your behavior. And we actually. So speaking of the speaking of advocates, our current editor in chief, when he came on after that previous person made it very clear that he would not be like he would not act like that, and that he would not allow his associate editors to act like that.
And he instituted some things where before we hire a new associate editor, he wants staff to interview them so that we can confirm, yes, this person seems like they'll be good to work with. He wants very open lines of communication. You need to tell me if there's a problem. So he really took it seriously. And I think that's a big part of the problem. The big part of the reason that we haven't had real problems since then because he, you know, let everybody know these were his expectations for behavior.
And if you did not behave like this, that you did not need to be part of this publication. So it's been really valuable working with him. Yeah the results of the poll, you know, it says, you know, who is responsible for stopping bullying and overwhelmingly, anyone who sees it happening. Oddly enough, air is the last person, right? According to this poll, piggybacking on, what you were just saying, Emily and Rebecca, but also something David had mentioned.
If everyone is expected to, according to this poll, is their responsibility to stop bullying. But the numbers I quoted earlier is tremendous number of targets who end up leaving their job and overwhelmingly the bully stays on I think, 70% of the time. You know, if you do everything you're supposed to do, you document everything, all the incidents, how does that get handled.
So you document everything, you turn it over to your supervisor. They may do something with it. They may not do anything with it. What mechanisms do you have or do you think are necessary to protect the victims, which I think is fundamental. But also penalize reprimand the bully. I mean, I can start with that if I was the supervisor being notified that someone was being bullied, I mean, I would make it clear that I take it seriously and I would probably be the one to go to HR and let them know what was happening and look for guidance from them.
For CSC, there's an email address that people can use in the code of conduct explains that you should talk to, your committee chair or board member or anyone who's in a leadership position at CSC and that that person will help you to resolve the issue. So there's clear steps for that. I think part of the problem, we haven't really talked about barriers to reporting bullying, but I think.
Part of the problem is that, like if you see someone doing something wrong and you report it, you can usually stay anonymous, that kind of thing. But if you're being bullied, you can't really keep that anonymous, because if the bully is going to be reprimanded, then they have to be told that this is what you're doing wrong. And that's going to even if they don't use your name, it's going to be obvious to that person who they're talking about.
So while I think it's really important to address things directly when there's a problem with bullying, I think it can be hard for those who are being bullied knowing that they're not going to remain anonymous. I think it's one of the bystander. When you want to do the good thing and report, you also have to look at the victim, right, to make sure that how what they're comfortable with.
Right Yeah. Yeah it does I would agree with that. And I apologize for joining late everyone I would agree with that. Rebecca though, that it does take a level of strength and reserves for the person being bullied to do something about it. And I think, you know, it's that support of the community, someone who saw something or someone who observed something.
I think that is just something really, really important to point out, whether it's in the workplace or online, in a social media setting or at a community event, like all of our events are supported by our organizations. Right welcome, Jennifer. Thank you for joining us. Yes perils of when the day job calls. I'm just going to introduce myself super quickly. So anyone who doesn't know me, my name is Jennifer Regala.
I am just really privileged to be a part of all of the organizations here represented here today and have felt personally supported in situations like this one. And really appreciate and value the community. And I'm unexpectedly getting even a little bit choked up as I introduce myself, because I do want everyone here to know that you are all important and valued, and every person on this screen that you see here, we are resources for you and I encourage you to reach out to us.
And then my day job is I work at the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists. And if anyone is unfamiliar with our work, there is a level of the people that I work with. We are a unified group. We are 100% When you show up to work here, you are all on the same page of what you're doing. But there is a tremendous amount of adversity coming from our government and other external factors.
So again, this is something that's on my mind a lot. And I just really value that. All of these organizations, above all else, of course, professional development, networking, all of that's important. But I can tell you that every single one of these groups is committed first and foremost to including people and making everyone seen and part of the community. So thank you for letting me interrupt.
Let's carry on speaking of community, Thank you Jennifer. We have a couple of questions in the Q&A that I want to make sure we address. So the first one comes from Daniel. Hi, Daniel. An environment where social media dominates. Some bullies hide behind anonymity. What can people do to protect themselves from such trolling. OK, that I don't have an answer to that, Dan, but I do have some comments to that.
And I will say again, just sharing my own personal experience. I have actually. And sometimes the folks aren't anonymous either, who might be lashing out at you for whatever reason. And it's really hard to know what to do. And it's for things, maybe. And it's public and everyone's seeing it. And so the first way you feel in some cases might be shame embarrassed.
Everyone can see this. What did I do. What did I do wrong. It must be me. What's the problem. What have I done. And then it's like, Oh my gosh, I wonder who saw this. And then do I delete this. But I'm a very really one who deletes things ever, because I do think it's important to have a record.
I mean, for instance, I don't ever if I put something out there, I don't delete it because I did that and I don't think it's fair to do something and then undo it. I don't think that's honest or transparent. I mean, the only time I might delete something is if I put up a wrong link to something or something that was just complete misinformation on accident. So how do you respond to that. I don't have a good answer to that, but it's hard and it's overwhelming.
And at this point, I my concern is, and I think a big driver of why we're all gathered here today is, what do you do in that situation. I will say, I, I was gratified in cases where this has happened to me, that others came to me proactively and said, Jennifer, we saw this and we saw that, and what do you want us to do to support you. You talk to us. You tell us what to do and how we can best help you.
And then I think it's also a matter of all of us being vigilant and looking out for our, our people. You know? And even if someone is not our person still looking out for them. So Yeah, no, I agree, I think, I think it's a matter of just not giving them air sometimes a person says something about you online. Just don't respond.
And what I've noticed with some of these people who say terrible things about others online is that they tend not to get responses at all because it's, you know, when it's clearly bullying. Nobody wants to be a part of that. Knowingly and so, Yeah, I think not giving them air, showing that your comment just didn't land with me. It doesn't bother me. I don't feel the need even to defend myself.
I think that actually just goes a long way, and especially if it's on social media, it shows the world that you're not going to let it bother you. And then for setting up some, some, some safety measures, I mean, I guess it depends depends on the platform for LinkedIn. I know sometimes it's difficult. You get you get people inviting you. They want to connect, they want to connect.
But I always check to see, all right, who else is that person connected with. You know, if it's someone random that I don't know anybody and I don't accept their invitation. That said, it could be it could be a bully who could be connected to many of us. But those are just some things that can help to keep the bullying reduced. Also, just block them as soon as they do something, or take a screenshot of their comments and then report it to the platform.
Yeah, unfortunately we found that LinkedIn was not very. No, they're not they're not supportive. No, I mean, they responded, but they basically said, we don't think it's bullying when in our minds it was clearly, clearly wrong. And they and they're probably looking at the engagement. So could be. Yeah it was really disappointing. That brings us to the next.
Oh go ahead Jennifer. Well no. And I was just going to say to, to Emily's point about LinkedIn seemingly not caring because I've had to report and I will continue to report just so there's a record of it, but there nothing happens from that. And then another twist on this too, is what happens if there's something that is a situation where, I mean, I'll use myself as an example.
This is a real thing that happened is where there was someone said something to me online, but brought other people and organizations into it too. So then at that point, what do you do there. And I'll say I had the support of the community, but also, what if I had been in my 20s early career. And I just didn't have this amazing network. What would that have looked like.
So I'm putting that out there. I don't have answers, but I appreciate this conversation and also everyone who's not in the chat. Definitely check that out too, because there's a lot of support and resources in there. The next question actually is from an anonymous attendee and actually connect to this question. I'm not I'm not an attendee, but I could definitely relate to the question.
I'm curious to get your thoughts on it. At what point does bullying be categorized. Categorized as abuse. It took me over three years to mostly recover from my experience, which was very slow to grow and subtle. The term abuse is something I've only recently been able to use, though still difficult to say at times. So coming from a perspective. And I'll just be very open with people that like early bullying experience completely damaged my self-esteem.
That never recovered. So, you know, that is, I mean, I would categorize bullying always as abuse. Like there's never a point where it's not, you know, abuse. You know, maybe it wasn't an intentional situation, but it's still a form of abuse. It's still going to cause, damage to the other individual.
And, you know, it could be permanent self esteem. It could be, a permanent like feeling that they cannot perform as well as someone else, you know, I mean, if someone's always taking credit for your work, for example, which again, it's a form of bullying, that person can really feel like they're not, you know, worth the, you know, the work that they have done because, you know, no one ever recognizes them. So I mean, it's always abuse.
And and you know, I think, you know, I know that it, you know, it needs to be called out as abuse. I mean, bullying isn't a term, but it's always abuse. It's a form of abuse, right? Yeah Yeah, I would agree with that. Especially because like we said, bullying is not a one time incident. I, I really think that in order for it to actually be called bullying, it needs to be something that is sustained over a period of time.
That's absolutely abuse. And I do think it's I am a big advocate of saying out loud and publicly that seek help. And what does that help look like. I personally am a big believer in, seeing a psychologist and, you know, any other resources that are available to me making use of those and talking about doing that.
I mean, I'm not saying that someone else should have to talk about it, but I'm saying, please seek out the resources. And please seek out, you know, the helpers. This next question comes from Cynthia. Having experienced instances of bullying in your own careers, what are some things you do in your current positions to discourage and prevent behavior with your reports or others.
Well, I call it out. I mean, I've, I've, I've stepped in with an editor that was, I thought, disrespectful and not nice to our editorial coordinator. And I said, hey, you're not going to tolerate that. So I wanted to do for her what this journal editor did for me, you know, years ago. So but, you know, fortunately, I have to say, where I work now is one of the most respectful places.
And our, I mean, small team. But I will call it out. I mean, because especially if you're dealing with a lot of, I mean, academics, and I apologize for any academics on the call, but a lot of arrogance and entitlement, you know, because I've got a PhD in blah, blah, blah blah means I can act this way. And they think they're acting with authority and they're not.
They're being abusive. They're being bullies. Do you know who I am. Yes Oh my God, yes. How many papers I've published. Yeah, I mean, I would agree with Rebecca's comments that luckily I haven't really had to deal with this in my direct workplace. But Yeah, just calling it out when you see it.
And like Dan was saying in the chat, being an ally and just setting clear expectations with your team, if it's needed to just say, this is how I expect people to behave. And I think it's being the person you expect others to be. Yeah, I think that David said, really spoke to me and I have had this happen a lot of I'm really careful to give credit where credit is due. Sometimes I have to present on behalf of my department and it's basically, Emily did this, Randy did this, Rebecca did this, David did this.
You know, give that credit where credit is due. Really make people feel included. Treat, treat people like I wish I had been treated in my earlier career. And also show them what your boundaries are. So are you going to let someone speak to you like that. There's a way to respectfully speak to, for instance, badly behaving editor, and I haven't had to deal with that in a number of years because as I got older, I just haven't tolerated that.
But it's hard to do that when you're brand new to this industry. It's complicated enough. We're all working in fields like I'm no ob gyn. I have no idea like what the science is. I am totally confident saying that now because I know all the things I need to know. Well, not all. I mean, I know like 10% but more than I used to know of what I need to know for publishing.
So I'm the expert there, so I can feel confident in that. But it's hard to, you know, know all of that. I would also say reach out to your network or develop your network. I mean, one of the reasons to join one, you know, the organizations is to develop that network to be able to talk about things with other colleagues that you might not be able to talk about with your internal colleagues.
But, you know, I, I personally have a zero tolerance policy. You know, I will call it out immediately if I see it. And, you know, if I recognize it in an organization, I will not. You know, I and I know it's not something that can be changed then, you know, I've developed at least somewhat of a sense of self-worth of saying, I don't want to be in that situation again. It's toxic. It's unhealthy.
And, you know, I'm going to find a place that's going to better align with my values. And, you know, that's just incredibly important is to just really think about it. And don't stay in a situation that's going to make you. You know, doubt your worth or, or it's going to affect your health. There's a conversation in the chat that supports what you're saying, David, about toxic workplace.
And then there was somebody who wrote. Rachel Taylor about, HR in many respects is working out for the company, not the individual. So if you're in a situation where you're not getting a result, you're not getting a response from HR or from leadership, then I think it's time to go. Yeah, I mean, I've, I've, I've had experiences when it was time for me to leave an organization, it just it was. Yeah Yeah.
Which is I mean, again, also, you know, sometimes there's not somewhere to go and you need that job to have your eyes open. And I do agree with Rachel. HR works for the company. Is there to it's good to have a record I think. But it's good to have some other safety nets in place. And then Sylvia's point is super, super important about don't as this is easier said than done.
But it's really important to keep in mind is don't let that toxic workplace then screw you up. For your next workplace. I think that's really important to consider. I'll just add one thing before we move to the next question. You know, leaning into community, which was echoed by everybody already is your networks is so important. You know, this experience here was born out of a conversation that Jennifer and I had because we both had experiences with bullies.
And, you know, we started a conversation with each other and said, well, you know who else besides us who have experience with this and may have a little bit thicker skin than others, who else is vulnerable to this kind of behavior. And, how can we protect them or what conversations should they be a part of. And what you know, who should they hear from. And, you know, immediately we started thinking about who we could bring together.
And, you know, we reached out to these organizations who represent many of you, all that are here and those that aren't here, with care and compassion and empathy and support in making sure that you all can participate comfortably without fear of that kind of pressure or intimidation. So, you know, leaning into your networks inspires these kinds of, of gatherings. So, you know, I always want to say, don't underestimate the value of your networks.
And that's so true. And I'll also say, after Randy and I had that conversation, we reached out to this group. And every not one, not one group said, Oh, we don't know what that everyone's like, Oh my gosh, that's so worthwhile. Let's do this. And that's important. This next question from another anonymous attendee, I'm not sure if this is the same anonymous attendee or not, but different people, obviously have different levels of tolerance for this kind of behavior.
Overall, there does seem to be notable generational differences. Any thoughts on that. More of a comment than a question, I agree. I mean, I think sometimes too it if you like, like the cartoon Emily, that you shared, like the perception. So there could be two what Eagles or whatever talking, but they're not understanding what the mouse is, what their experience.
But I do think there is a generational difference, because I guess I can say this because I'm probably the senior person in this group. But back in the day, all kinds of, you know, there was less. We didn't have code of conduct. So people were doing what they were doing, particularly people in authority. And I do think for some people, if they're not used to being.
Being caught out or being talked to and they're and they're still, you know, and they still have positions of power, it's very difficult for, I think, for them to understand. And I think even if you're not a bully, if you're used to a culture that bullying is OK if you that's how you start off in your career. Recognizing it and doing something about it is also can be difficult.
All I can think about is the men's hockey team laughing. So you know, did they bully overtly? Did they say something, but they laughed and they went along with it. And so that's I'll always think about that and try to be the, the person who is not that person. See something, say something, do something. Be the positive change. There is a different there are different levels of tolerance though.
And I think I, I think I'm in the I think I'm older than you, Rebecca, but whatever it's neither here nor there. The point being that. What? just having lived through that kind of life there really for anyone on, you know, earlier career on the phone there were it was lawless and there was some bad stuff going on out there.
And a number of different ways. And I have four kids. And from the moment that any of them could talk, I've always taught them these are all the wrong things. But the more I thought about that, that kind of bled over into my workplace, too. And I think it's my unspoken duty. But I'm realizing this about myself speaking about it right now is you have to model the behavior, and you have to talk about the behavior that you're expecting from those around you.
Yeah, I'm going to put something in the chat and people can read it and decide for themselves. Is this an example of bullying or not. And I think it might speak to that generational divide because it's between a supervisor and a direct report for some people that might this might not be that big a deal. For others, it might be truly terrible. It's all about would not have been a big deal to me.
Well, we didn't have SLACK back then either, but but the public shaming was very. And I think that's what I'm saying. You I think you hit the nail on the head, Emily, because this is exactly. I would never do anything like this to anybody for any reason. I wouldn't even think like that to them one on one either. I would wait until an appropriate. I mean, this is just.
And say I saw your, you know, changes. Let's talk about those. Talk me through it. And then also to maybe I'm not even maybe that's not even the right way to do it. I would just say talk me through these changes. I'm really interested one on one and in person. So there's no chance for miscommunication. Yeah Yeah.
I think the nuance for me on that situation would be if the person wanted to go public about it because they decided, hey, I made a mistake, I'd like to prevent this from happening elsewhere. And they discussed it and they decided but and but it still be anonymized. Like, you know, it would be like, let's make sure there's best practices to avoid this from happening again.
Not a not ever, ever publicly bringing out someone specifically made a mistake. And that's, that's, you know, and. That's something that I just I can't get behind in terms of, calling someone out because I, you know, I had that situation earlier in my career where I, you know, back back in the day. You know, you printed off messages for facts.
And, you know, I had a managing editor who would literally ruin hours of work because they'd go through with a red pen and start outlining any mistakes that were made, causing you to have to go back in and fix them. I mean, you know, missing a colon, you could have used a little pen and put the colon in, but you then have to go back and do all the work again so that you could then fax it out without all of the red pen mistakes and stuff in it.
So like things like that, you know, publicly ruining someone's work or publicly calling someone out is not acceptable. Yeah, I'll just add that especially for the new managers that are here, as I was growing in my career, I learned a lot from managers that may have done something similar to that. And just thinking like, I would never do that if that was my call.
I think this is an example of what you probably shouldn't do or you shouldn't. I don't think you should say probably, but you shouldn't do as a manager. Definitely poor form. Yeah, I agree. And I don't want to say it's all been I mean, I do think of positive things that might not be HR appropriate for the workplace today, but I'll just never forget my mentor.
Shout out to Nancy Winchester, who used to be an SSP member. She's enjoying a fun retirement now. She's probably at the beach right now, but I'll just never forget her saying, you, Jennifer, you can do anything you want to do. Seriously, you can do anything you want. You have four kids, which was completely inappropriate for her to be saying, but she's like, if you can do that, you can literally do any of this publishing stuff, like whatever.
So it wasn't all bad along the way. But Yeah, there was. I would say I like it better now at least. Yeah, I agree with the comment that just went into the chat that older generations internalized bad behavior and see, they would see things as acceptable. And, you know, it's like I was saying at the beginning of this chat, there's or the beginning of this webinar, there's a lot of discussion in schools now about bullying that didn't happen when I was in school.
And so they're hearing it from a much earlier age that this is not OK. Yeah there was something in the Rachel was sharing today's scarlet Kitchen post in the chat, which I haven't had a chance to read yet. I haven't either. Deandra he offered the today's post minority and disenfranchised folks have been leading the charge towards and inclusive workplaces, despite being most common targets of bullying.
And they're tired. Plus, when you, a queer person or a person of color, call out someone from a dominant group, they will cry bullying real quick. Do you all have any thoughts about or they say you're being too sensitive. Yes that's you're imagining it. Oh, you know, you're Becca, you know. Yeah so when I was young, you're always so sensitive, right?
Exactly that's the ego talking about the mouse, right? Right Yeah. Don't take it so seriously. Right? Yeah. Not that big of a deal, right? Oh, tone it down. Yeah, it always. It always works to tell people you need to calm down, right?
Oh, Yeah. Yeah, I've heard that. I could be as calm as could be. But if you tell me to calm down, I am about right, I will explode. Yeah yes, exactly. You need to relax, you know. OK OK. Yeah there's another question in the Q&A.
Moving on to a healthier workplace is sometimes the best answer, but is often not something we can do. We can quickly change. Do you have tips for how to make an unhealthy environment more tolerable while you're looking for your next professional move. So so when I worked with that editor I was describing before, I realized now that my supervisor shielded me quite a bit from that editor as much as he could, but he would often take a mental health day, or he would just say, I'm going to be out for the rest of the day, you know, because he recognized that he needed to step away from the situation and.
But more than that, that he deserved to step away from the situation and not have to be in the middle of that. And I think that's key, that if you have leave or if you work for a place that has a very liberal leave policy like I do, step away from it, and take time off and do something for yourself to remind yourself that you don't deserve to be in this situation. I, I had fortunately, I had someone, a colleague of mine who was very helpful and we would just go outside and go for walks when we were in person.
My boss was supportive left. So I always feel to this day, if it wasn't for her, I probably would have had a breakdown. You know? But she would go out and walk and was talk or whatever. And I'm always, forever, ever grateful. But it's tough when you're trying to. You're looking for something and you still have to work and figure it out.
But what you're saying about taking the mental health day, that's very smart. Megan McDevitt, same walks. Audrey sane having a therapist. I always think about my dear friend Sylvia and the massive list of books and resources. She's given me over time. I mean, I could probably write a book of all the Sylvia given things, but it just helps to know Sylvia's on my roster of amazing friends who would do anything for me.
So, like, think of those resources, too. Maybe you can't get out of the job. Maybe you can't go take a walk. Maybe you can't take a day off. Maybe you can't afford a therapist. But figure out what you can do and write it down. If you can, write it down and see all the resources you have. If you're here on this call today, you have all of us write that down.
You know, think about what you have at your disposal. It's also important to have your allies or have people that you stay in close contact with who and work in other organizations. So you can find your mentor. That doesn't work. And sometimes that's best because they're out of it. They're not. They're much more objective.
So I've had someone that I could always talk to through my career that when something came up and I think that's always helpful as well. A slightly different take on it. And I think those solutions help until it reaches a certain point. And so at some point, it's just the best solution to leave, even if you don't have a safety net, which I've done a couple times in my career and it and for me, it gets to the point where if you're dreaming about work and you're sitting there and you're stressed about even starting the next day and you know and you know, it's not going to get better then, you know, you have to take the leap for yourself.
And, you know, having, you know, the first time this happened to me having, you know, my parents, for example, like literally call me out saying that I wouldn't be able to support my family or, you know, it was a, you know, you just stay no matter what. I do want to fight against that to some extent because, you know, making the change sometimes is the best option. I mean, though, you know, having a colleague and, and, you know, taking walks and, and are, are critical as a kind of a relief valve or pressure.
But I do think there's a point at where it gets so bad that, you know, take time for yourself and, and just make that leap. Going back to an earlier comment, Dave, where, you know, we talked about bullying as abuse. Like when you put it in that context, how long would you stay in an abusive home. You know, there is that time where you have to draw the line and say, you know, I don't know what's going to happen next, but I know what's happening here, and I'm better than that.
I need to treat myself better than that, and I'll find out what tomorrow brings. Yeah all right. We have another. Oh, Yeah. We have another question, I think, from another anonymous attendee. Having come out on the other end of being a target, I want to help others who may be experiencing or experiencing it or prepare people to respond if it does.
That may mean talking publicly about my experience, but I don't want to put my bully abuser on blast. I know where their behavior came from and want to respect that. Trying to figure out a way to speak my truth for the benefit of others. What about anonymous post on scarlet Kitchen. Yes Could they do that. I'm looking at you since you won the chef's Randy, right?
Or maybe whoever that person is can reach out to you and you can organize that. Yeah Yeah. Or organize Q&A session at an upcoming meeting of csea or SSP or whatever about this topic. Yeah I don't know, to be public, but they wouldn't even have to share their personal story. I would. I think that hosting, like being the moderator or something of a session like that is would also be extremely helpful.
Even if you aren't sharing your own personal story. And Emily, I did. It was not on this topic and I it was Chatham House rule. So I'm not going to even get into what it was. But I participated in a panel last year at CSW. And it turned out to be standing room only. And it was a very sensitive topic that I wouldn't necessarily go out into a public forum. But I'll tell you what, I saw nothing but respect in that room for me, my fellow co-panelists and the reception that we were given and no negative outcomes after that, just to speak to the support of this community.
Yeah, it was mental health related, not this, but but that is a good point. That is an option. I think people would be well protected to do that. A call to action I do have for everyone too is I. Every day I try to find a way to make people right close in my circle, feel seen and appreciate it. But then I also try to reach out to people in my professional circle every day.
One easy way is to try to notice people doing awesome stuff on LinkedIn. I know some people don't love LinkedIn, but I do. If you got a raise or you you're speaking somewhere or you went on a business trip, tell me all about it. And I want to. I want to congratulate you for that. I am genuinely so excited for any. Or you're saying you're sharing something rough on there.
I want to support that, to send someone a text that know, send someone an email. All of these organizations have our emails in the, you know, private member directories randomly email someone out of the clear blue sky where you see someone that maybe you noticed on the fringe at an event. Reach out to them and invite them to have virtual coffee with you.
I do that stuff all the time too, and it makes a difference. And that is not something that I used to see done back in the day. We didn't have networks like these either though, so I encourage all of you to do the same thing. Just in addition to the Scholarly Kitchen that you mentioned, Rebecca, there's also science editor for CSC. There's also Ian.
All right I had the SSP hat on, so let's give everyone their. Susan put it into the chat. Not Yeah. The chat the manager website, which has tremendous advice. I encourage anyone here to take a look at it. But if anyone here has other resources that they consult or they can refer people to, please do add them to the chat.
I think this community here, we love finding new resources. So this is a great place to share those. I just put one in the chat. Crucial learning.com. I've always found that one really helpful. They have a great newsletter that has good information for managers and has addressed bullying in the past.
And Randy, have we done a shameless plug yet for the mental health awareness community of interest network. Great so all of you would be welcome. And again, it is an SSP resource, but I want to encourage everyone to know that all are welcome to this. It is. We've done this now for going on a year and a half. We meet the third Tuesday of every month at 11:00 AM.
The biggest rule of this group is we do not share who attended the meetings and we don't discuss what was we don't discuss outside of that meeting, what we talk about on that day. Sometimes we have guest speakers. Sometimes we have a little agenda, or sometimes we just all show up and talk. And I'll tell you what, it's one of the most valuable things that I do.
And I invite all of you to join us. You can reach out to Randy or to me for information. You do not have to come prepared. We are not going to. The only thing we'll ask you to volunteer for. There is one thing we will ask you is will you consider writing a Scholarly Kitchen post? But it's not a requirement and we will never bug you about it. We want you to come to this meeting and really get something valuable out of it.
That's the intent. Did I explain that. Well, Randy. Fantastic Yeah. And just so you know, this was not my idea. This was all Randy and past leadership of SSP who worked to gather to, you know, really focus on mental health. And I just appreciate that all of these organizations on this call today.
Take the time to care about that and talk about that and give that a platform. Because again, recognizing not everyone can just quit their job. And it's also really hard to find a therapist. It's really expensive. I know there's a lot of accessibility issues for a lot of the different alternatives, but that is one thing that you guys can count on and join in, free of cost and free of obligation.
Thanks Thanks for the great plug, Jennifer. Believe it or not, we have about 14 minutes left of this 90 minute town hall, which I think is amazing. One thing that I want to just ask, I don't think there's any more questions in the Q&A. So I'm going to throw out shamelessly throw out one of my questions here because there are three major organizations in our industry represented.
Confidentiality legal restrictions often keep allegations of misconduct like bullying in their investigations kind of concealed. Behind the veil. The organizations they often share. Community members, contributors, and participants. Jennifer and I are a member of all these organizations and participate freely.
So we're examples of this. How should the industry handle individuals who slip through the cracks and move between organizations. After being called out for bullying by one of the organizations, how can we protect our how can we protect those cracks. I know at CSC we've reached out to some of those other organizations about individuals.
I know we've worked with SSP and ismt just to say, you know, we had this experience with this person not to say, like you need to ban them or whatever, but just, you know, you need to be aware of their behavior. So that they can be on the lookout for it. Yeah, I think there's communications between organizations is important. And yes, we said we can't say ban them, but Yeah, but keep a lookout.
Be on guard. I have to agree. I mean, I think there's limited action that we can take other than, you know, communication, and then, you know, watching to see if you know, the behavior transfers. Yeah Yeah. We have another poll question.
I think we do. Right let me check. I, I mean, I had a few scenarios. Where is this bullying or not. Do you want me to try some of those. What do people think. Oh, Yeah. Here's one.
Oh Oh, I don't like this. Because you think it's bullying or because you think it's borderline or I'm not allowed to vote. But I think it's Blaine. I think that's just mean. Oh my gosh. Yeah anything that is meaningfully intending to exclude is not it.
Well, it's funny because so many of these scenarios I, I experienced, you know, and I'm like, wow, that was mean. And I did feel, you know, in this particular scenario, I can definitely think back to where I was, Elena. In that story. And I remember how I felt, you know, hearing these other conversations that I should have been included in deliberately occurring without me.
And then I'm also held to know whatever was going on in that meeting, because they're talking really important things. Wow I have a career being bullied. Interesting to think about an experience. Michael Fitzgerald with someone being labeled a bully who was not a bully. That's interesting.
Yeah, I don't I mean, I do feel like we throw around the word bullying more than it really applies necessarily. You know, just because someone does something to you that you think is mean, it may or may not rise to the level of bullying. Bullying? Yeah. And it might be to like that person, whoever that person is or looks like.
Right because that then other people can perceive, Oh, that's bullying. As maybe if they received the same kind of treatment from somebody else, they don't think of that as well or whatever. Yeah right. Susan, do you have the fifth pole about the boss? Yeah Oh, the one after this.
There Yeah. I think there's just there's times where we might equate a boss who's very strict with someone who is bullying. Here this is it. As everyone's voting. Dan says some bullies try to label others as a bully to diffuse the impression of them.
Yeah it's a classic bullet first. They don't see them. They don't. They have no self-awareness. And they are. I used to work with this woman who would lash out quick temper all the time. God forbid if you called her on it. But there was a meeting with her, and we had.
She had the same boss. She did something crazy and I just said, I just said, this is ridiculous. And I kind of laughed because it was just so silly. But that was she just erupted, threw up her hands, stormed out the room. Whatever our boss was mortified, but because she did that, she never acted that way with me again. Because I was always like, it's like some bully.
Sometimes I don't know if you confront them, they'll. They might reduce their behavior. But Yeah. Anyway Yeah, it's I always think of people. Many people are insecure, right? Why would you resort to whatever you're doing if that's the way you want to get a message across or you want to get things done a certain way. If you have to bully someone to do it, then obviously you're afraid.
It always comes down to being afraid. Afraid of losing power. Gaining power. Someone who looks different or whatever. Right? sound of fear. Susan, I'm curious what the outcome was on that last poll. Yeah, I would actually be in the no camp, in part because he's not doing anything publicly necessarily. At the end where it says he gave a needs improvement rating, but he had specific examples of reasons why he gave that rating.
He's not just being mean necessarily. I, I I'd be curious to know what's the breakdown generational I wonder. Yeah I do want to say that. Any manager who is not immediately discussing like missed KPIs or, you know, and bringing that up when it happens, or who is saving it for like a rainy day.
That's that to me. That's another example of, potential bullying. So, you know, if you have a weekly meeting with your boss and everything is roses, and then you get to your performance evaluation and you get a negative, that's not something that should ever happen in the workplace. And, and a lot of times that's used again as a tool to assert power or.
Or, you know, negatively impact someone. Right? Yeah. In the chat, Lauren said it's hard and the boss sounds very micromanaging, but it's not outright bullying. Yeah, it doesn't sound like someone I would want to work for. Constantly looking over my shoulder, but I don't know that I personally would not raise that to the level of bullying.
But there's not one right or wrong answer. I mean, if you do feel like it's bullying, then that's valid as well. Oh my gosh, I once had a boss. I just have to tell you guys this because I just it just popped into my head. And this person no longer works in the industry. And this was a long time ago, but I this person tried to ban me from using exclamation points and Smiley faces, which, if you know anything about me, that's communication.
But you know what? I was proud of myself. I stood up and I'm like, sorry, I have the best retention rate here. And we have the best output. So I'm going to use my exclamation points and Smiley faces. But I just can't imagine that's someone's concern. That is the major concern.
All I could think of. Wow, what a great life you must be, if that's what you're worried about. It's insane. Right? right. But, you know, speaking of exclamation points and the generational thing, you know, kids, now, if you put a period in your text or a message, it's like, why are you being so aggressive.
You know, that's what I said about the age, because there's definitely a difference between, I would say Gen Z versus boomers or Gen X. And yes, it's definitely a. And the conversations I've had with my kids on certain things and Yeah. Yeah so that's interesting to navigate that. Yeah perception is all that perception. When my daughters, my daughter has a friend who always talks in all lowercase because she doesn't want anybody to think she's yelling at them.
I'm like, Oh my goodness. It's like to me that just seems really wild. But I guess, you know, if like it. It seems like that's so widespread that it's become accepted among that age group. I Yeah. Well, can you I mean, just in terms of all the things that's going on in our country of your young person, it's just like a lot of anxiety.
So, so some ways you can understand. Yeah we have the head bully. The head bully. Yeah so. I think Daniel made a point too, about the supervisor talking about that. Going back to that, manager of the manager. Supervisor keeps moving the goalposts and the.
And Rachel, that's true. And that was definitely Rachel true back in the day. If you're a Lettie, be nice and demure. And I was just actually reflecting yesterday that I am old enough that I it was required to wear pantyhose to the workplace, and I did one day catch my leg on fire because I had my leg so close to my illicit space heater. So that was a bunch of God.
So I didn't have. So then it was like, Oh, are you going to get more pantyhose to put on. Yeah so my leg just was on fire. And then also why do you have that heater to begin with. Well, maybe if you put the heat on I wouldn't. Interesting about the Lettie like so I guess your stats that you provided at the beginning. Randy said most victims are women.
But what if you have a woman who's a bully. Do people react more strongly because they don't think a woman should act that way. Or do what I mean. Like, if do we tolerate certain behaviors from a man that we won't from a woman, right. It's a higher threshold for bullying from a guy. I mean, that's my opinion. I think we do as well.
Yeah that women are expected to be quieter, just in general, I think. And that it's somehow OK for men to be more domineering. And I have had many more women than men tell me that I'm too much. That's another trigger thing. Like with a relaxed and calm down and chill. If you tell me I'm too much, it's about to get dialed. Way, way, way up.
Jennifer about two minutes. Yeah want to want to wrap us up. Yes I just want to Thank everyone for coming. I want you all to know the call to action today is keep in touch with us. Let us know how we can continue to support these communications. Please look to every single one of our organizations. Ismt e CSC, SAP.
How can we support you better. Is that event programming. Is that more Scholarly Kitchen. Ian science editor articles is that, you know, one on one discussions, more mentorships. I mean, there are many things that we can do. And then most importantly, get off this call and go do something nice to someone in your workplace or on LinkedIn, or pick someone out of like, shut your eyes and pick someone out of the SSP or CSC or directory and send them an email and get to know them.
Just go do something nice after this call. There's not enough of that and you'll make someone feel good. Thank you guys all for being here. Thank you Jennifer. Thank you Randy, and Thank you for everyone in the audience for your great chats and everything discussion. It's been wonderful. And reach out. Definitely reach out if you have ideas for SSP please.
Yeah Thanks, everyone. All right. Bye, everyone. Bye Thank.
Segment:0 .
Hello, everybody.
Welcome as you come in, please put your name into the chat and let us know where you're coming in from. I'll give it a few minutes before we get started.
Happy to see so many friendly faces and names in here. All right I'm going to go ahead and get started. So thank you all. And welcome to today's town hall standing together against bullying, creating respectful, safe, and supportive professional communities and scholarly publishing.
My name is Randy Townsend. I'm an associate professor in George Washington University's master of Professional Studies and publishing program, and co-facilitator of mental health community of interest network, the Scholarly Kitchen chef and the past president of the Society for Scholarly Publishing. Before we get started, I have just a few housekeeping items to review. Attendee microphones have been muted automatically.
Please use the Q&A feature in Zoom to enter questions for the moderator and panelists. You can also use the chat feature to communicate directly with other participants and organizers. Closed captions have been enabled. If you don't see the CC icon on your toolbar, you can view captions by selecting the More option on your screen and choosing Show Captions in the dropdown menu.
This 90 minute session will be recorded and available to registrants following today's event. Registered attendees will be sent an email when the recording is available. A quick note on SSPS code of conduct for today's meeting. We are committed to diversity, equity, and providing an inclusive meeting environment that fosters open dialogue and the free expression of ideas free of harassment, discrimination, and hostile conduct.
We ask all participants, whether speaking or in chat, to consider and debate relevant viewpoints in an orderly, totally respectful and fair manner. SSP is committed to complying with competition and antitrust laws. Please avoid any discussions of pricing, market allocation, boycotts or other topics that could be interpreted as anti-competitive. If any such discussions arise, they shall be stopped immediately to protect both individual participants and the organization.
My co-host and co-facilitator of the mental health community of interest network, Jennifer rogala, will be joining us shortly. Before introducing the panelists, I want to share a few statistics to give context to this discussion. Workplace bullying affects nearly 75 million people in the United States, including both the targets and those that witnessed the experiences.
And 62% of cases targeted employees end up leaving their job, while the perpetrator remains employed 70% of the time. 45% of victims experience stress related health issues, such as anxiety, insomnia, and depression. One in 5 bullied workers report suicidal ideation and 60% develop a long term mental health issues.
60% of bullying victims don't report incidents because they fear retaliation, while 30% fear reputational damage and 65% of workplace bullying victims are female, and 50% of remote workers experience bullying through digital tools like emails and Slack. At this time, I'd like to give our special guests an opportunity to introduce themselves. First up is David Allen.
Thanks, Randy, I appreciate it. My name is Dave Allen. And I am currently a director for the International Society of managing and technical editors. Just started on the board and very happy to be here. I've been in publishing for too many years now, and I it started out as a, you know, on the society side before moving to commercial, then getting into consulting, and recently started my own consulting firm with my partner, Megan McDevitt, called A&M editorial solutions.
Thank you David. Next up is Emily Gunn. Hi, I'm Emily Gunn, I'm the journal's director for the American Society of Clinical Oncology. I'm also the current president of the Council of Science Editors. Thank you, Emily. And finally, Rebecca McLeod. Hi, everyone, I'm Rebecca McLeod.
I am the current president of SSP, and I also work at the Harvard Data Science initiative, where I am the managing director of its publishing program. I'm very pleased to be here representing SSP, and I want to quickly Thank again both Randy and Jennifer for organizing this important event. And a shout out to all of you in the chat who are saying they are zooming in from snowy places. I'm from, I'm in Boston and I'm sick of this winter.
That's all I have to say. Right I want to just say, when Jennifer and I were having a conversation about what this town hall could be, we reached out to these particular leaders. They overwhelmingly responded with enthusiasm and support on participating in this discussion. And I just really want to take this moment to express our gratitude for you all joining us and being part of this conversation today.
It's so important. Actually, I was working on my slides last week and my daughter walked in and she said, why are you making slides about bullying. I said, well, I'm on a webinar next week. Really? why are you talking about that. And I explained that like, this isn't just something that because they talk about it in schools a lot now. And I'm like, it's not just something you need to talk about when you're school age.
Like you need to continue this conversation. It you know, it's always going to be an important topic. I think that's a great example. Emily, because they're learning from us that these conversations, they continue on. Right professional settings. Yep so and it's particularly, I think even challenging I think we talked about it when we met in our pre meeting in this time too because we have leadership in our country who act as bullies or as bullies.
So how do you how do you work, if that's the example that young people are getting, and/or reinforces bullying behavior. In the workplace. I think we're at a very particular challenging time right now. So I think having this conversation and then also getting listening to the audience, what they have to say are things really important.
Yeah to that point, too, Rebecca, Thank you for mentioning this. This is a town hall. So your questions for those that are attending, we want to hear from you. So please do ask some questions to the chat. If you have any questions that we can discuss here with these leaders. You know we'll vet them a little bit and see what they have to say about it.
You'll see that there's a poll going on right now. I think we have a couple more poll questions where we really do want you all to be active participants in today's conversation. So those that I know that are here, I'm expecting to see your responses. Wow all right. So I guess we can go ahead and get started. I want to start with some overarching themes that each individual organization represented here navigates independently.
So what formal policies or codes of conduct does your organization currently have in place that address bullying, harassment or professional conduct. And Emily's OK, I'll start with you. Sure Yeah. So the Council of Science Editors does have a code of conduct, and it doesn't use the word bullying.
I read it the other day as I was getting ready for this. And it does describe behaviors that could be considered bullying. Aggressive behavior, name calling, harassment, all those things. And it's pretty detailed, actually. It's quite lengthy about what our expectations are and what are the things that are simply not allowed. And it includes details about what to do if you see it happening, what to do if it happens to you.
It's and it's available right on our website. You can get to it like right from the home page. So it I, I feel like we've done a pretty good job of putting it front and center. We also remind attendees of that before certain events. I believe it's part of the registration process that you're familiar with the code of conduct, and you agree to abide by it. So it's definitely not just one of those policies that was written.
And then put on the shelf. It's something that is actively enforced and that we remind people of consistently. Excellent David. Sure I assume T also has a professional code of conduct, and again, that is posted on its website that covers conduct that, you know, from member to member also through know, meetings and events. And again, it, it the code of conduct doesn't specifically address, you know, bullying behavior, but really just being professional to one another.
But they iceemt is also released a, you know, position statement on bullying, harassment and professional conduct as well. I think it partly in response to the fact that, you know, it is a growing concern. And so. I, I agree with it. You know, been in these situations, you multiple times in my career.
And, you know, I always kind of stress, you know, being professional with one another. I have never lost by treating people with kindness and respect and, and just looking them at as a person and, and a fellow professional. Thank you. David Rebecca. Hi Yeah.
So as Randy started off today with reading the or part of the an abstract of sp's code of conduct, which we regularly read for every webinar, before every event, before our committee meetings as well. So it's something that I think we're very strong, we're feel strongly about. It outlines what we deem as acceptable and not acceptable behavior, and we do also have procedures in place.
I'm just putting things in the chat of what to do if you're reporting a violation and what happens and who do you go to. I think for many of us who are SSP members, we're used to seeing the short version. I think it's always good to familiarize yourself with the entire code of conduct, which I just put in the chat, and I can also put the procedures as well. I think sometimes we forget, you know, we see, we hear it, but we don't always like we need to be.
It needs to be reinforced. Yeah, Yeah. You're absolutely right. That reinforcement, I think, you know, I've said it on plenty of committee meetings and, you know, it's always a good reminder because it sets the tone for that particular experience. No matter.
You know, many of us hop from meeting to meeting. But when you walk into this room, whether in person or virtual, it's a reminder that this is a protected space and a safe space. Before we move on to the next one, Susan has the results of the poll, so I'd like to see what that looks like.
Wow, that is a very small percentage at the bottom there. Wow Thank you Susan. Thank you, Susan, for that. All right. So how are your policies enforced. And Rebecca, I'll just jump back to you on this one.
Because you are the chairs of the committees or whoever's convening the activity. They read the code of conduct. Are they expected to also enforce infringements or violations. I think during committee meetings, I think they are. And in fact, when we do, you know, every year we have orientation session for incoming, even returning co-chairs.
And part of that orientation involves carefully reading, going through the entire code of conduct, explaining what is, what is considered unacceptable and then also going through the procedure so everyone is clear. So I think during a committee meeting, I do think that it is their role to oversee, but also a staff person is usually, you know, on those calls as well. And they can also help enforce.
So there shouldn't be a situation where something happens and then no one knows what to do or no one, no one steps in. So I think it's just a matter of to just of arming, of giving that authority to committee chairs. You know, this is part of your role. To advocate for anybody or to stop anything that you see. That's unacceptable. Yeah and actually, to that end, Susan, I just put another poll question in the chat.
So when you have a second. Oh, Yeah. There you go. If people want to jump in here what they're doing that. Emily, when we're talking about bullying, we're not talking about like just somebody being mean or rude. Yeah so can you talk about that a little bit. Yeah, Yeah.
So you're right. There's a difference between someone's having a bad day and they, they say something rude to you and, and you know, we've all been there. Bullying is a persistent, ongoing, focused behavior. And when I say focused, I mean focused on one person or one group of people Someone you mentioned in the chat, the power imbalance. And that's generally what it is, someone who's in a much more powerful position.
Sort of being aggressive towards someone who's in a less powerful position. And I actually have something I want to share real quick. Let me just pull it up on my screen. That is. That speaks to that, to that idea that this is that there's a power imbalance. Oop, there it is.
Can I share. Yes so if you're familiar with the comic strip. By Nathan Pyle I forget what it's a strange planet that he drew this. And I always think it's really interesting. The two Eagles. Do you think owl is a predator? Of course not.
He's never bothered me. Exactly he says, I have no idea what Mr mouse is going on about. So clearly there's a huge power imbalance between an eagle and a mouse. And so the eagle, you know, they don't think that owl is a predator because he's not bothering them. But he's bothering the mouse because he's that much more powerful than them. So I always come back to that when I think about bullying and how so often it's one person trying to like, I don't know, pull their rank, so to speak, but persistently and in an ongoing way.
David Yeah, I, I agree with that. And I think that's been my experience with bullying in the industry multiple times. I had an executive director early on in my career that was just very toxic. And, you know, they were toxic in a way that was designed to get people to do what they wanted and/or to try to force an outcome that they wanted, regardless of whether or not it affected the employees.
And, you know, the striking thing about the health issues, I had panic attacks, you know, at the time that I thought were heart attacks because of that behavior. And so, you know, and I think a lot of that just tends to be, not just the power balance, but, you know, the bullying is designed in the workplace to get someone to behave in a manner that that person wants. And so they're so it can be a power balance.
Or it could be someone who's trying to establish power over you. Yes, as well. You know, it could be a colleague that is just using this to in some way force a behavior. And, you know, I see it a lot when, you know, just credit for work that's happened and, and, you know, you know, people can't give the proper credit to their colleagues or they take credit for something which, again, is creating a power imbalance and in the, in the space.
And so, you know, recognizing that is important. I personally tend to be a self deprecating. And I always try to, call out people who are doing the work because at least in my mind, you know, if they're doing a good job, it's supporting me as well. And so they need to be recognized for that. But, you know, a lot of times that that doesn't happen. But but the power imbalance, whether it's someone who's senior or whether it's someone who's trying to force you to act in a certain way, is to me that the biggest issue that I've seen over the years, I used to work with an editor who was absolutely a bully, and he would he would do this all the time.
He would send me an email where the subject line said, please call. And that was it. There was no message, no nothing, no indication of what he wanted. And his personality was such that he was not afraid to throw you under the bus to say really nasty things right up front. So when it's all it says is please call.
That's when you start shaking because you're going into the unknown. But the worst part about it is that I would immediately have to drop everything and call him, because if I didn't, he would start complaining to my boss and he would pick up immediately. So he was within arm's reach of his phone. He could have been the one to call me, but he didn't want that.
He wanted me to be scared and be the one to call him. And it was horrible. It was absolutely. It was the worst environment I've ever worked in. Working with him, I, I had a situation where a journal editor was a, was a bully and with emails I would be. This was back in the day when it wasn't always online. So I'd come into the office, turn on my computer, and I'd be terrified, thinking, what email did he send me overnight.
Right and one time I was sending, I would send, you know, messages about what's going on to all of the journal editors. And I made the mistake of sort of blind copying. I C everybody in my haste. So this guy then had the emails of the other journal editors and then started disparaging, I didn't know this, you know, until a little bit later that then he was, you know, making comments about the press, about me. But a couple of editors reached out to me and let me know.
But then one in particular, I guess, wrote back to this guy and defend and just said, you know, you're just crazy. You're just nonsense. Just stop it. And I'm ever grateful for that editor because he having it come from another editor like another peer, whatever. That made it much more powerful. And I'll just never forget that, because that wasn't an ally, but someone who had power, who could in that, in that case, you know, stop this guy, which we did.
OK Yeah. I would say one of the most toxic editor behaviors I've ever seen was for a colleague of mine, and the editor did not want to choose how which social editors to sign papers to us, and so gave a complicated list of two. The editorial assistant on how they should assign papers to the subeditors. So they purposely set this person up to fail in terms of.
They were not a subject matter expert, so they were going to make mistakes. And then every single time a mistake was made, they would call my colleague and denigrate them on the phone. Every single time. And so when I found out about it, I, I went to the, the director of publications and I flat out said, you tell him to hire a intern or a postdoc or someone who, if he doesn't want to do it, have someone who's a subject matter expert who might benefit from that experience do the work.
Because, I mean, that was such a toxic situation. I was thinking, we're going back to about colleagues or someone I think was Ashley in the chat, talked about, you know, what your situations where you have, one member of one team bullying another. And I think, I think it's something we had talked about before about trying to define what bullying is. Sometimes it's difficult because some person can perceive something as bullying in someone else, right?
Or if you're, you know, if someone's in the same peer group or whatever. But for colleagues, I think it can be tricky. How how do you how do you address it. You know, how do you. And it's usually someone, again, who wants to assert their authority. They can be insecure in some way. How do you address that.
Right you know, it's. I don't know, I guess it depends on the situation. So I don't know if you two have any ideas or anybody in the who in our audience and, you know, dealing with a colleague who's a bully, who doesn't have power over you but is trying to restrict that power over you. So I've been in that situation before, unfortunately. And it was really difficult because the bully was someone that I had previously considered a friend and was acting in a way that was truly awful to one of our colleagues who I then supervised.
It was really a matter of keeping a record of everything, because this person would say things in email that like, why would you put that in writing. But they did horrible things or just keeping notes. You know, I had a conversation with this person. They said things that they shouldn't have. And I wrote everything down. Or I talked to the person who was being bullied, wrote everything down.
So like keeping super careful records. And every time it happened, I would have to address it with the bully, which was even more awkward because this person was like 15, 20 years older than me, about ready to retire. And here I am, so much younger than them and having to be like, stop being a bully. And I had to be very clear with them. If you keep doing this, this is what's going to happen.
And eventually, I had to let him go, which was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do in my professional career. I never want to have to fire someone again. It was truly terrible. But we're very clear with him from the start. This is the expected behavior. This is how you have not risen to that expected behavior. And this is going to be the consequence if it continues.
And not even getting bogged down in the, this is, it makes this person feel terrible and like not even getting bogged down in the reasons why it's wrong, because his behavior was so clearly wrong that just being explicit and then following through on exactly what we said would happen. And calling him out, not being afraid to call him out. I agree, document, document everything. You know, even if it's a phone call, if it's a conversation, just write it down.
Establish a record of what's going on. So that you have supportive evidence. When you do go to someone else about the situation. Although this did trigger a memory of one of my first colleagues who was unintentionally bullying and had to be called out on it. Because they didn't recognize that they were doing it, and they did it because they'd had a traumatic experience with someone else who had, you know, quit previously.
And so anytime they saw any behavior that reminded them of that person. They went negative on others. And so that was a situation where I had to go to the director of publications and say, listen, this, this is what happened. This is what's happening. There's someone who's ready to leave. That is a really great employee.
And you know what? What we do about it. And, you know, that's the situation where the person who was unintentionally doing it, really nice person, had to be shown or had to talk it through and figure out why they were acting that way. But, you know, typically I just say document everything because once you're in a negative position, whether it's a colleague or someone in power, especially, a lot of times bullies are really liked because they, they, they manage upwards, right.
So their behavior is not above them. You know. And so you need to document, you need to have you need to have evidence and you just you need to go into that conversation very calm. And like, this is what's going on. It's not acceptable. And you know, if the organization doesn't support you, I hate to say it, then it is time to look elsewhere.
Yeah sorry, Rebecca. Real quick. Susan, can you launch the second pole. I was just saying the interaction about the importance of quoting the code of conduct. But what do we do when it's a journal editor or an author. I mean, do we think about putting a code of conduct in our author contracts or journal editor contracts. I mean, seriously, we did.
Oh, you did. OK Yeah. So then we wrote it into their contract that they are required to be collegial with staff. And we set out expectations for their behavior in that agreement. Unfortunately, that was the result of the editor I was just talking about. So, you know, it was a learning process.
But Yeah, we were very explicit. This is what we expect for your behavior. OK because my experience was so years and years ago before anyone even thought about a code of conduct. I mean, who would think that you would have to tell a grown adult this is how you're supposed to behave. But with the previous editor, ultimately it did go to the CEO, his behavior, and he was asked to apologize, which he did by saying, I'm very sorry that you made me mad.
Essentially was how it came back to us. But Yeah, we learned from that you have to just state it in Black and white. This is what we expect from you for your behavior. And we actually. So speaking of the speaking of advocates, our current editor in chief, when he came on after that previous person made it very clear that he would not be like he would not act like that, and that he would not allow his associate editors to act like that.
And he instituted some things where before we hire a new associate editor, he wants staff to interview them so that we can confirm, yes, this person seems like they'll be good to work with. He wants very open lines of communication. You need to tell me if there's a problem. So he really took it seriously. And I think that's a big part of the problem. The big part of the reason that we haven't had real problems since then because he, you know, let everybody know these were his expectations for behavior.
And if you did not behave like this, that you did not need to be part of this publication. So it's been really valuable working with him. Yeah the results of the poll, you know, it says, you know, who is responsible for stopping bullying and overwhelmingly, anyone who sees it happening. Oddly enough, air is the last person, right? According to this poll, piggybacking on, what you were just saying, Emily and Rebecca, but also something David had mentioned.
If everyone is expected to, according to this poll, is their responsibility to stop bullying. But the numbers I quoted earlier is tremendous number of targets who end up leaving their job and overwhelmingly the bully stays on I think, 70% of the time. You know, if you do everything you're supposed to do, you document everything, all the incidents, how does that get handled.
So you document everything, you turn it over to your supervisor. They may do something with it. They may not do anything with it. What mechanisms do you have or do you think are necessary to protect the victims, which I think is fundamental. But also penalize reprimand the bully. I mean, I can start with that if I was the supervisor being notified that someone was being bullied, I mean, I would make it clear that I take it seriously and I would probably be the one to go to HR and let them know what was happening and look for guidance from them.
For CSC, there's an email address that people can use in the code of conduct explains that you should talk to, your committee chair or board member or anyone who's in a leadership position at CSC and that that person will help you to resolve the issue. So there's clear steps for that. I think part of the problem, we haven't really talked about barriers to reporting bullying, but I think.
Part of the problem is that, like if you see someone doing something wrong and you report it, you can usually stay anonymous, that kind of thing. But if you're being bullied, you can't really keep that anonymous, because if the bully is going to be reprimanded, then they have to be told that this is what you're doing wrong. And that's going to even if they don't use your name, it's going to be obvious to that person who they're talking about.
So while I think it's really important to address things directly when there's a problem with bullying, I think it can be hard for those who are being bullied knowing that they're not going to remain anonymous. I think it's one of the bystander. When you want to do the good thing and report, you also have to look at the victim, right, to make sure that how what they're comfortable with.
Right Yeah. Yeah it does I would agree with that. And I apologize for joining late everyone I would agree with that. Rebecca though, that it does take a level of strength and reserves for the person being bullied to do something about it. And I think, you know, it's that support of the community, someone who saw something or someone who observed something.
I think that is just something really, really important to point out, whether it's in the workplace or online, in a social media setting or at a community event, like all of our events are supported by our organizations. Right welcome, Jennifer. Thank you for joining us. Yes perils of when the day job calls. I'm just going to introduce myself super quickly. So anyone who doesn't know me, my name is Jennifer Regala.
I am just really privileged to be a part of all of the organizations here represented here today and have felt personally supported in situations like this one. And really appreciate and value the community. And I'm unexpectedly getting even a little bit choked up as I introduce myself, because I do want everyone here to know that you are all important and valued, and every person on this screen that you see here, we are resources for you and I encourage you to reach out to us.
And then my day job is I work at the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists. And if anyone is unfamiliar with our work, there is a level of the people that I work with. We are a unified group. We are 100% When you show up to work here, you are all on the same page of what you're doing. But there is a tremendous amount of adversity coming from our government and other external factors.
So again, this is something that's on my mind a lot. And I just really value that. All of these organizations, above all else, of course, professional development, networking, all of that's important. But I can tell you that every single one of these groups is committed first and foremost to including people and making everyone seen and part of the community. So thank you for letting me interrupt.
Let's carry on speaking of community, Thank you Jennifer. We have a couple of questions in the Q&A that I want to make sure we address. So the first one comes from Daniel. Hi, Daniel. An environment where social media dominates. Some bullies hide behind anonymity. What can people do to protect themselves from such trolling. OK, that I don't have an answer to that, Dan, but I do have some comments to that.
And I will say again, just sharing my own personal experience. I have actually. And sometimes the folks aren't anonymous either, who might be lashing out at you for whatever reason. And it's really hard to know what to do. And it's for things, maybe. And it's public and everyone's seeing it. And so the first way you feel in some cases might be shame embarrassed.
Everyone can see this. What did I do. What did I do wrong. It must be me. What's the problem. What have I done. And then it's like, Oh my gosh, I wonder who saw this. And then do I delete this. But I'm a very really one who deletes things ever, because I do think it's important to have a record.
I mean, for instance, I don't ever if I put something out there, I don't delete it because I did that and I don't think it's fair to do something and then undo it. I don't think that's honest or transparent. I mean, the only time I might delete something is if I put up a wrong link to something or something that was just complete misinformation on accident. So how do you respond to that. I don't have a good answer to that, but it's hard and it's overwhelming.
And at this point, I my concern is, and I think a big driver of why we're all gathered here today is, what do you do in that situation. I will say, I, I was gratified in cases where this has happened to me, that others came to me proactively and said, Jennifer, we saw this and we saw that, and what do you want us to do to support you. You talk to us. You tell us what to do and how we can best help you.
And then I think it's also a matter of all of us being vigilant and looking out for our, our people. You know? And even if someone is not our person still looking out for them. So Yeah, no, I agree, I think, I think it's a matter of just not giving them air sometimes a person says something about you online. Just don't respond.
And what I've noticed with some of these people who say terrible things about others online is that they tend not to get responses at all because it's, you know, when it's clearly bullying. Nobody wants to be a part of that. Knowingly and so, Yeah, I think not giving them air, showing that your comment just didn't land with me. It doesn't bother me. I don't feel the need even to defend myself.
I think that actually just goes a long way, and especially if it's on social media, it shows the world that you're not going to let it bother you. And then for setting up some, some, some safety measures, I mean, I guess it depends depends on the platform for LinkedIn. I know sometimes it's difficult. You get you get people inviting you. They want to connect, they want to connect.
But I always check to see, all right, who else is that person connected with. You know, if it's someone random that I don't know anybody and I don't accept their invitation. That said, it could be it could be a bully who could be connected to many of us. But those are just some things that can help to keep the bullying reduced. Also, just block them as soon as they do something, or take a screenshot of their comments and then report it to the platform.
Yeah, unfortunately we found that LinkedIn was not very. No, they're not they're not supportive. No, I mean, they responded, but they basically said, we don't think it's bullying when in our minds it was clearly, clearly wrong. And they and they're probably looking at the engagement. So could be. Yeah it was really disappointing. That brings us to the next.
Oh go ahead Jennifer. Well no. And I was just going to say to, to Emily's point about LinkedIn seemingly not caring because I've had to report and I will continue to report just so there's a record of it, but there nothing happens from that. And then another twist on this too, is what happens if there's something that is a situation where, I mean, I'll use myself as an example.
This is a real thing that happened is where there was someone said something to me online, but brought other people and organizations into it too. So then at that point, what do you do there. And I'll say I had the support of the community, but also, what if I had been in my 20s early career. And I just didn't have this amazing network. What would that have looked like.
So I'm putting that out there. I don't have answers, but I appreciate this conversation and also everyone who's not in the chat. Definitely check that out too, because there's a lot of support and resources in there. The next question actually is from an anonymous attendee and actually connect to this question. I'm not I'm not an attendee, but I could definitely relate to the question.
I'm curious to get your thoughts on it. At what point does bullying be categorized. Categorized as abuse. It took me over three years to mostly recover from my experience, which was very slow to grow and subtle. The term abuse is something I've only recently been able to use, though still difficult to say at times. So coming from a perspective. And I'll just be very open with people that like early bullying experience completely damaged my self-esteem.
That never recovered. So, you know, that is, I mean, I would categorize bullying always as abuse. Like there's never a point where it's not, you know, abuse. You know, maybe it wasn't an intentional situation, but it's still a form of abuse. It's still going to cause, damage to the other individual.
And, you know, it could be permanent self esteem. It could be, a permanent like feeling that they cannot perform as well as someone else, you know, I mean, if someone's always taking credit for your work, for example, which again, it's a form of bullying, that person can really feel like they're not, you know, worth the, you know, the work that they have done because, you know, no one ever recognizes them. So I mean, it's always abuse.
And and you know, I think, you know, I know that it, you know, it needs to be called out as abuse. I mean, bullying isn't a term, but it's always abuse. It's a form of abuse, right? Yeah Yeah, I would agree with that. Especially because like we said, bullying is not a one time incident. I, I really think that in order for it to actually be called bullying, it needs to be something that is sustained over a period of time.
That's absolutely abuse. And I do think it's I am a big advocate of saying out loud and publicly that seek help. And what does that help look like. I personally am a big believer in, seeing a psychologist and, you know, any other resources that are available to me making use of those and talking about doing that.
I mean, I'm not saying that someone else should have to talk about it, but I'm saying, please seek out the resources. And please seek out, you know, the helpers. This next question comes from Cynthia. Having experienced instances of bullying in your own careers, what are some things you do in your current positions to discourage and prevent behavior with your reports or others.
Well, I call it out. I mean, I've, I've, I've stepped in with an editor that was, I thought, disrespectful and not nice to our editorial coordinator. And I said, hey, you're not going to tolerate that. So I wanted to do for her what this journal editor did for me, you know, years ago. So but, you know, fortunately, I have to say, where I work now is one of the most respectful places.
And our, I mean, small team. But I will call it out. I mean, because especially if you're dealing with a lot of, I mean, academics, and I apologize for any academics on the call, but a lot of arrogance and entitlement, you know, because I've got a PhD in blah, blah, blah blah means I can act this way. And they think they're acting with authority and they're not.
They're being abusive. They're being bullies. Do you know who I am. Yes Oh my God, yes. How many papers I've published. Yeah, I mean, I would agree with Rebecca's comments that luckily I haven't really had to deal with this in my direct workplace. But Yeah, just calling it out when you see it.
And like Dan was saying in the chat, being an ally and just setting clear expectations with your team, if it's needed to just say, this is how I expect people to behave. And I think it's being the person you expect others to be. Yeah, I think that David said, really spoke to me and I have had this happen a lot of I'm really careful to give credit where credit is due. Sometimes I have to present on behalf of my department and it's basically, Emily did this, Randy did this, Rebecca did this, David did this.
You know, give that credit where credit is due. Really make people feel included. Treat, treat people like I wish I had been treated in my earlier career. And also show them what your boundaries are. So are you going to let someone speak to you like that. There's a way to respectfully speak to, for instance, badly behaving editor, and I haven't had to deal with that in a number of years because as I got older, I just haven't tolerated that.
But it's hard to do that when you're brand new to this industry. It's complicated enough. We're all working in fields like I'm no ob gyn. I have no idea like what the science is. I am totally confident saying that now because I know all the things I need to know. Well, not all. I mean, I know like 10% but more than I used to know of what I need to know for publishing.
So I'm the expert there, so I can feel confident in that. But it's hard to, you know, know all of that. I would also say reach out to your network or develop your network. I mean, one of the reasons to join one, you know, the organizations is to develop that network to be able to talk about things with other colleagues that you might not be able to talk about with your internal colleagues.
But, you know, I, I personally have a zero tolerance policy. You know, I will call it out immediately if I see it. And, you know, if I recognize it in an organization, I will not. You know, I and I know it's not something that can be changed then, you know, I've developed at least somewhat of a sense of self-worth of saying, I don't want to be in that situation again. It's toxic. It's unhealthy.
And, you know, I'm going to find a place that's going to better align with my values. And, you know, that's just incredibly important is to just really think about it. And don't stay in a situation that's going to make you. You know, doubt your worth or, or it's going to affect your health. There's a conversation in the chat that supports what you're saying, David, about toxic workplace.
And then there was somebody who wrote. Rachel Taylor about, HR in many respects is working out for the company, not the individual. So if you're in a situation where you're not getting a result, you're not getting a response from HR or from leadership, then I think it's time to go. Yeah, I mean, I've, I've, I've had experiences when it was time for me to leave an organization, it just it was. Yeah Yeah.
Which is I mean, again, also, you know, sometimes there's not somewhere to go and you need that job to have your eyes open. And I do agree with Rachel. HR works for the company. Is there to it's good to have a record I think. But it's good to have some other safety nets in place. And then Sylvia's point is super, super important about don't as this is easier said than done.
But it's really important to keep in mind is don't let that toxic workplace then screw you up. For your next workplace. I think that's really important to consider. I'll just add one thing before we move to the next question. You know, leaning into community, which was echoed by everybody already is your networks is so important. You know, this experience here was born out of a conversation that Jennifer and I had because we both had experiences with bullies.
And, you know, we started a conversation with each other and said, well, you know who else besides us who have experience with this and may have a little bit thicker skin than others, who else is vulnerable to this kind of behavior. And, how can we protect them or what conversations should they be a part of. And what you know, who should they hear from. And, you know, immediately we started thinking about who we could bring together.
And, you know, we reached out to these organizations who represent many of you, all that are here and those that aren't here, with care and compassion and empathy and support in making sure that you all can participate comfortably without fear of that kind of pressure or intimidation. So, you know, leaning into your networks inspires these kinds of, of gatherings. So, you know, I always want to say, don't underestimate the value of your networks.
And that's so true. And I'll also say, after Randy and I had that conversation, we reached out to this group. And every not one, not one group said, Oh, we don't know what that everyone's like, Oh my gosh, that's so worthwhile. Let's do this. And that's important. This next question from another anonymous attendee, I'm not sure if this is the same anonymous attendee or not, but different people, obviously have different levels of tolerance for this kind of behavior.
Overall, there does seem to be notable generational differences. Any thoughts on that. More of a comment than a question, I agree. I mean, I think sometimes too it if you like, like the cartoon Emily, that you shared, like the perception. So there could be two what Eagles or whatever talking, but they're not understanding what the mouse is, what their experience.
But I do think there is a generational difference, because I guess I can say this because I'm probably the senior person in this group. But back in the day, all kinds of, you know, there was less. We didn't have code of conduct. So people were doing what they were doing, particularly people in authority. And I do think for some people, if they're not used to being.
Being caught out or being talked to and they're and they're still, you know, and they still have positions of power, it's very difficult for, I think, for them to understand. And I think even if you're not a bully, if you're used to a culture that bullying is OK if you that's how you start off in your career. Recognizing it and doing something about it is also can be difficult.
All I can think about is the men's hockey team laughing. So you know, did they bully overtly? Did they say something, but they laughed and they went along with it. And so that's I'll always think about that and try to be the, the person who is not that person. See something, say something, do something. Be the positive change. There is a different there are different levels of tolerance though.
And I think I, I think I'm in the I think I'm older than you, Rebecca, but whatever it's neither here nor there. The point being that. What? just having lived through that kind of life there really for anyone on, you know, earlier career on the phone there were it was lawless and there was some bad stuff going on out there.
And a number of different ways. And I have four kids. And from the moment that any of them could talk, I've always taught them these are all the wrong things. But the more I thought about that, that kind of bled over into my workplace, too. And I think it's my unspoken duty. But I'm realizing this about myself speaking about it right now is you have to model the behavior, and you have to talk about the behavior that you're expecting from those around you.
Yeah, I'm going to put something in the chat and people can read it and decide for themselves. Is this an example of bullying or not. And I think it might speak to that generational divide because it's between a supervisor and a direct report for some people that might this might not be that big a deal. For others, it might be truly terrible. It's all about would not have been a big deal to me.
Well, we didn't have SLACK back then either, but but the public shaming was very. And I think that's what I'm saying. You I think you hit the nail on the head, Emily, because this is exactly. I would never do anything like this to anybody for any reason. I wouldn't even think like that to them one on one either. I would wait until an appropriate. I mean, this is just.
And say I saw your, you know, changes. Let's talk about those. Talk me through it. And then also to maybe I'm not even maybe that's not even the right way to do it. I would just say talk me through these changes. I'm really interested one on one and in person. So there's no chance for miscommunication. Yeah Yeah.
I think the nuance for me on that situation would be if the person wanted to go public about it because they decided, hey, I made a mistake, I'd like to prevent this from happening elsewhere. And they discussed it and they decided but and but it still be anonymized. Like, you know, it would be like, let's make sure there's best practices to avoid this from happening again.
Not a not ever, ever publicly bringing out someone specifically made a mistake. And that's, that's, you know, and. That's something that I just I can't get behind in terms of, calling someone out because I, you know, I had that situation earlier in my career where I, you know, back back in the day. You know, you printed off messages for facts.
And, you know, I had a managing editor who would literally ruin hours of work because they'd go through with a red pen and start outlining any mistakes that were made, causing you to have to go back in and fix them. I mean, you know, missing a colon, you could have used a little pen and put the colon in, but you then have to go back and do all the work again so that you could then fax it out without all of the red pen mistakes and stuff in it.
So like things like that, you know, publicly ruining someone's work or publicly calling someone out is not acceptable. Yeah, I'll just add that especially for the new managers that are here, as I was growing in my career, I learned a lot from managers that may have done something similar to that. And just thinking like, I would never do that if that was my call.
I think this is an example of what you probably shouldn't do or you shouldn't. I don't think you should say probably, but you shouldn't do as a manager. Definitely poor form. Yeah, I agree. And I don't want to say it's all been I mean, I do think of positive things that might not be HR appropriate for the workplace today, but I'll just never forget my mentor.
Shout out to Nancy Winchester, who used to be an SSP member. She's enjoying a fun retirement now. She's probably at the beach right now, but I'll just never forget her saying, you, Jennifer, you can do anything you want to do. Seriously, you can do anything you want. You have four kids, which was completely inappropriate for her to be saying, but she's like, if you can do that, you can literally do any of this publishing stuff, like whatever.
So it wasn't all bad along the way. But Yeah, there was. I would say I like it better now at least. Yeah, I agree with the comment that just went into the chat that older generations internalized bad behavior and see, they would see things as acceptable. And, you know, it's like I was saying at the beginning of this chat, there's or the beginning of this webinar, there's a lot of discussion in schools now about bullying that didn't happen when I was in school.
And so they're hearing it from a much earlier age that this is not OK. Yeah there was something in the Rachel was sharing today's scarlet Kitchen post in the chat, which I haven't had a chance to read yet. I haven't either. Deandra he offered the today's post minority and disenfranchised folks have been leading the charge towards and inclusive workplaces, despite being most common targets of bullying.
And they're tired. Plus, when you, a queer person or a person of color, call out someone from a dominant group, they will cry bullying real quick. Do you all have any thoughts about or they say you're being too sensitive. Yes that's you're imagining it. Oh, you know, you're Becca, you know. Yeah so when I was young, you're always so sensitive, right?
Exactly that's the ego talking about the mouse, right? Right Yeah. Don't take it so seriously. Right? Yeah. Not that big of a deal, right? Oh, tone it down. Yeah, it always. It always works to tell people you need to calm down, right?
Oh, Yeah. Yeah, I've heard that. I could be as calm as could be. But if you tell me to calm down, I am about right, I will explode. Yeah yes, exactly. You need to relax, you know. OK OK. Yeah there's another question in the Q&A.
Moving on to a healthier workplace is sometimes the best answer, but is often not something we can do. We can quickly change. Do you have tips for how to make an unhealthy environment more tolerable while you're looking for your next professional move. So so when I worked with that editor I was describing before, I realized now that my supervisor shielded me quite a bit from that editor as much as he could, but he would often take a mental health day, or he would just say, I'm going to be out for the rest of the day, you know, because he recognized that he needed to step away from the situation and.
But more than that, that he deserved to step away from the situation and not have to be in the middle of that. And I think that's key, that if you have leave or if you work for a place that has a very liberal leave policy like I do, step away from it, and take time off and do something for yourself to remind yourself that you don't deserve to be in this situation. I, I had fortunately, I had someone, a colleague of mine who was very helpful and we would just go outside and go for walks when we were in person.
My boss was supportive left. So I always feel to this day, if it wasn't for her, I probably would have had a breakdown. You know? But she would go out and walk and was talk or whatever. And I'm always, forever, ever grateful. But it's tough when you're trying to. You're looking for something and you still have to work and figure it out.
But what you're saying about taking the mental health day, that's very smart. Megan McDevitt, same walks. Audrey sane having a therapist. I always think about my dear friend Sylvia and the massive list of books and resources. She's given me over time. I mean, I could probably write a book of all the Sylvia given things, but it just helps to know Sylvia's on my roster of amazing friends who would do anything for me.
So, like, think of those resources, too. Maybe you can't get out of the job. Maybe you can't go take a walk. Maybe you can't take a day off. Maybe you can't afford a therapist. But figure out what you can do and write it down. If you can, write it down and see all the resources you have. If you're here on this call today, you have all of us write that down.
You know, think about what you have at your disposal. It's also important to have your allies or have people that you stay in close contact with who and work in other organizations. So you can find your mentor. That doesn't work. And sometimes that's best because they're out of it. They're not. They're much more objective.
So I've had someone that I could always talk to through my career that when something came up and I think that's always helpful as well. A slightly different take on it. And I think those solutions help until it reaches a certain point. And so at some point, it's just the best solution to leave, even if you don't have a safety net, which I've done a couple times in my career and it and for me, it gets to the point where if you're dreaming about work and you're sitting there and you're stressed about even starting the next day and you know and you know, it's not going to get better then, you know, you have to take the leap for yourself.
And, you know, having, you know, the first time this happened to me having, you know, my parents, for example, like literally call me out saying that I wouldn't be able to support my family or, you know, it was a, you know, you just stay no matter what. I do want to fight against that to some extent because, you know, making the change sometimes is the best option. I mean, though, you know, having a colleague and, and, you know, taking walks and, and are, are critical as a kind of a relief valve or pressure.
But I do think there's a point at where it gets so bad that, you know, take time for yourself and, and just make that leap. Going back to an earlier comment, Dave, where, you know, we talked about bullying as abuse. Like when you put it in that context, how long would you stay in an abusive home. You know, there is that time where you have to draw the line and say, you know, I don't know what's going to happen next, but I know what's happening here, and I'm better than that.
I need to treat myself better than that, and I'll find out what tomorrow brings. Yeah all right. We have another. Oh, Yeah. We have another question, I think, from another anonymous attendee. Having come out on the other end of being a target, I want to help others who may be experiencing or experiencing it or prepare people to respond if it does.
That may mean talking publicly about my experience, but I don't want to put my bully abuser on blast. I know where their behavior came from and want to respect that. Trying to figure out a way to speak my truth for the benefit of others. What about anonymous post on scarlet Kitchen. Yes Could they do that. I'm looking at you since you won the chef's Randy, right?
Or maybe whoever that person is can reach out to you and you can organize that. Yeah Yeah. Or organize Q&A session at an upcoming meeting of csea or SSP or whatever about this topic. Yeah I don't know, to be public, but they wouldn't even have to share their personal story. I would. I think that hosting, like being the moderator or something of a session like that is would also be extremely helpful.
Even if you aren't sharing your own personal story. And Emily, I did. It was not on this topic and I it was Chatham House rule. So I'm not going to even get into what it was. But I participated in a panel last year at CSW. And it turned out to be standing room only. And it was a very sensitive topic that I wouldn't necessarily go out into a public forum. But I'll tell you what, I saw nothing but respect in that room for me, my fellow co-panelists and the reception that we were given and no negative outcomes after that, just to speak to the support of this community.
Yeah, it was mental health related, not this, but but that is a good point. That is an option. I think people would be well protected to do that. A call to action I do have for everyone too is I. Every day I try to find a way to make people right close in my circle, feel seen and appreciate it. But then I also try to reach out to people in my professional circle every day.
One easy way is to try to notice people doing awesome stuff on LinkedIn. I know some people don't love LinkedIn, but I do. If you got a raise or you you're speaking somewhere or you went on a business trip, tell me all about it. And I want to. I want to congratulate you for that. I am genuinely so excited for any. Or you're saying you're sharing something rough on there.
I want to support that, to send someone a text that know, send someone an email. All of these organizations have our emails in the, you know, private member directories randomly email someone out of the clear blue sky where you see someone that maybe you noticed on the fringe at an event. Reach out to them and invite them to have virtual coffee with you.
I do that stuff all the time too, and it makes a difference. And that is not something that I used to see done back in the day. We didn't have networks like these either though, so I encourage all of you to do the same thing. Just in addition to the Scholarly Kitchen that you mentioned, Rebecca, there's also science editor for CSC. There's also Ian.
All right I had the SSP hat on, so let's give everyone their. Susan put it into the chat. Not Yeah. The chat the manager website, which has tremendous advice. I encourage anyone here to take a look at it. But if anyone here has other resources that they consult or they can refer people to, please do add them to the chat.
I think this community here, we love finding new resources. So this is a great place to share those. I just put one in the chat. Crucial learning.com. I've always found that one really helpful. They have a great newsletter that has good information for managers and has addressed bullying in the past.
And Randy, have we done a shameless plug yet for the mental health awareness community of interest network. Great so all of you would be welcome. And again, it is an SSP resource, but I want to encourage everyone to know that all are welcome to this. It is. We've done this now for going on a year and a half. We meet the third Tuesday of every month at 11:00 AM.
The biggest rule of this group is we do not share who attended the meetings and we don't discuss what was we don't discuss outside of that meeting, what we talk about on that day. Sometimes we have guest speakers. Sometimes we have a little agenda, or sometimes we just all show up and talk. And I'll tell you what, it's one of the most valuable things that I do.
And I invite all of you to join us. You can reach out to Randy or to me for information. You do not have to come prepared. We are not going to. The only thing we'll ask you to volunteer for. There is one thing we will ask you is will you consider writing a Scholarly Kitchen post? But it's not a requirement and we will never bug you about it. We want you to come to this meeting and really get something valuable out of it.
That's the intent. Did I explain that. Well, Randy. Fantastic Yeah. And just so you know, this was not my idea. This was all Randy and past leadership of SSP who worked to gather to, you know, really focus on mental health. And I just appreciate that all of these organizations on this call today.
Take the time to care about that and talk about that and give that a platform. Because again, recognizing not everyone can just quit their job. And it's also really hard to find a therapist. It's really expensive. I know there's a lot of accessibility issues for a lot of the different alternatives, but that is one thing that you guys can count on and join in, free of cost and free of obligation.
Thanks Thanks for the great plug, Jennifer. Believe it or not, we have about 14 minutes left of this 90 minute town hall, which I think is amazing. One thing that I want to just ask, I don't think there's any more questions in the Q&A. So I'm going to throw out shamelessly throw out one of my questions here because there are three major organizations in our industry represented.
Confidentiality legal restrictions often keep allegations of misconduct like bullying in their investigations kind of concealed. Behind the veil. The organizations they often share. Community members, contributors, and participants. Jennifer and I are a member of all these organizations and participate freely.
So we're examples of this. How should the industry handle individuals who slip through the cracks and move between organizations. After being called out for bullying by one of the organizations, how can we protect our how can we protect those cracks. I know at CSC we've reached out to some of those other organizations about individuals.
I know we've worked with SSP and ismt just to say, you know, we had this experience with this person not to say, like you need to ban them or whatever, but just, you know, you need to be aware of their behavior. So that they can be on the lookout for it. Yeah, I think there's communications between organizations is important. And yes, we said we can't say ban them, but Yeah, but keep a lookout.
Be on guard. I have to agree. I mean, I think there's limited action that we can take other than, you know, communication, and then, you know, watching to see if you know, the behavior transfers. Yeah Yeah. We have another poll question.
I think we do. Right let me check. I, I mean, I had a few scenarios. Where is this bullying or not. Do you want me to try some of those. What do people think. Oh, Yeah. Here's one.
Oh Oh, I don't like this. Because you think it's bullying or because you think it's borderline or I'm not allowed to vote. But I think it's Blaine. I think that's just mean. Oh my gosh. Yeah anything that is meaningfully intending to exclude is not it.
Well, it's funny because so many of these scenarios I, I experienced, you know, and I'm like, wow, that was mean. And I did feel, you know, in this particular scenario, I can definitely think back to where I was, Elena. In that story. And I remember how I felt, you know, hearing these other conversations that I should have been included in deliberately occurring without me.
And then I'm also held to know whatever was going on in that meeting, because they're talking really important things. Wow I have a career being bullied. Interesting to think about an experience. Michael Fitzgerald with someone being labeled a bully who was not a bully. That's interesting.
Yeah, I don't I mean, I do feel like we throw around the word bullying more than it really applies necessarily. You know, just because someone does something to you that you think is mean, it may or may not rise to the level of bullying. Bullying? Yeah. And it might be to like that person, whoever that person is or looks like.
Right because that then other people can perceive, Oh, that's bullying. As maybe if they received the same kind of treatment from somebody else, they don't think of that as well or whatever. Yeah right. Susan, do you have the fifth pole about the boss? Yeah Oh, the one after this.
There Yeah. I think there's just there's times where we might equate a boss who's very strict with someone who is bullying. Here this is it. As everyone's voting. Dan says some bullies try to label others as a bully to diffuse the impression of them.
Yeah it's a classic bullet first. They don't see them. They don't. They have no self-awareness. And they are. I used to work with this woman who would lash out quick temper all the time. God forbid if you called her on it. But there was a meeting with her, and we had.
She had the same boss. She did something crazy and I just said, I just said, this is ridiculous. And I kind of laughed because it was just so silly. But that was she just erupted, threw up her hands, stormed out the room. Whatever our boss was mortified, but because she did that, she never acted that way with me again. Because I was always like, it's like some bully.
Sometimes I don't know if you confront them, they'll. They might reduce their behavior. But Yeah. Anyway Yeah, it's I always think of people. Many people are insecure, right? Why would you resort to whatever you're doing if that's the way you want to get a message across or you want to get things done a certain way. If you have to bully someone to do it, then obviously you're afraid.
It always comes down to being afraid. Afraid of losing power. Gaining power. Someone who looks different or whatever. Right? sound of fear. Susan, I'm curious what the outcome was on that last poll. Yeah, I would actually be in the no camp, in part because he's not doing anything publicly necessarily. At the end where it says he gave a needs improvement rating, but he had specific examples of reasons why he gave that rating.
He's not just being mean necessarily. I, I I'd be curious to know what's the breakdown generational I wonder. Yeah I do want to say that. Any manager who is not immediately discussing like missed KPIs or, you know, and bringing that up when it happens, or who is saving it for like a rainy day.
That's that to me. That's another example of, potential bullying. So, you know, if you have a weekly meeting with your boss and everything is roses, and then you get to your performance evaluation and you get a negative, that's not something that should ever happen in the workplace. And, and a lot of times that's used again as a tool to assert power or.
Or, you know, negatively impact someone. Right? Yeah. In the chat, Lauren said it's hard and the boss sounds very micromanaging, but it's not outright bullying. Yeah, it doesn't sound like someone I would want to work for. Constantly looking over my shoulder, but I don't know that I personally would not raise that to the level of bullying.
But there's not one right or wrong answer. I mean, if you do feel like it's bullying, then that's valid as well. Oh my gosh, I once had a boss. I just have to tell you guys this because I just it just popped into my head. And this person no longer works in the industry. And this was a long time ago, but I this person tried to ban me from using exclamation points and Smiley faces, which, if you know anything about me, that's communication.
But you know what? I was proud of myself. I stood up and I'm like, sorry, I have the best retention rate here. And we have the best output. So I'm going to use my exclamation points and Smiley faces. But I just can't imagine that's someone's concern. That is the major concern.
All I could think of. Wow, what a great life you must be, if that's what you're worried about. It's insane. Right? right. But, you know, speaking of exclamation points and the generational thing, you know, kids, now, if you put a period in your text or a message, it's like, why are you being so aggressive.
You know, that's what I said about the age, because there's definitely a difference between, I would say Gen Z versus boomers or Gen X. And yes, it's definitely a. And the conversations I've had with my kids on certain things and Yeah. Yeah so that's interesting to navigate that. Yeah perception is all that perception. When my daughters, my daughter has a friend who always talks in all lowercase because she doesn't want anybody to think she's yelling at them.
I'm like, Oh my goodness. It's like to me that just seems really wild. But I guess, you know, if like it. It seems like that's so widespread that it's become accepted among that age group. I Yeah. Well, can you I mean, just in terms of all the things that's going on in our country of your young person, it's just like a lot of anxiety.
So, so some ways you can understand. Yeah we have the head bully. The head bully. Yeah so. I think Daniel made a point too, about the supervisor talking about that. Going back to that, manager of the manager. Supervisor keeps moving the goalposts and the.
And Rachel, that's true. And that was definitely Rachel true back in the day. If you're a Lettie, be nice and demure. And I was just actually reflecting yesterday that I am old enough that I it was required to wear pantyhose to the workplace, and I did one day catch my leg on fire because I had my leg so close to my illicit space heater. So that was a bunch of God.
So I didn't have. So then it was like, Oh, are you going to get more pantyhose to put on. Yeah so my leg just was on fire. And then also why do you have that heater to begin with. Well, maybe if you put the heat on I wouldn't. Interesting about the Lettie like so I guess your stats that you provided at the beginning. Randy said most victims are women.
But what if you have a woman who's a bully. Do people react more strongly because they don't think a woman should act that way. Or do what I mean. Like, if do we tolerate certain behaviors from a man that we won't from a woman, right. It's a higher threshold for bullying from a guy. I mean, that's my opinion. I think we do as well.
Yeah that women are expected to be quieter, just in general, I think. And that it's somehow OK for men to be more domineering. And I have had many more women than men tell me that I'm too much. That's another trigger thing. Like with a relaxed and calm down and chill. If you tell me I'm too much, it's about to get dialed. Way, way, way up.
Jennifer about two minutes. Yeah want to want to wrap us up. Yes I just want to Thank everyone for coming. I want you all to know the call to action today is keep in touch with us. Let us know how we can continue to support these communications. Please look to every single one of our organizations. Ismt e CSC, SAP.
How can we support you better. Is that event programming. Is that more Scholarly Kitchen. Ian science editor articles is that, you know, one on one discussions, more mentorships. I mean, there are many things that we can do. And then most importantly, get off this call and go do something nice to someone in your workplace or on LinkedIn, or pick someone out of like, shut your eyes and pick someone out of the SSP or CSC or directory and send them an email and get to know them.
Just go do something nice after this call. There's not enough of that and you'll make someone feel good. Thank you guys all for being here. Thank you Jennifer. Thank you Randy, and Thank you for everyone in the audience for your great chats and everything discussion. It's been wonderful. And reach out. Definitely reach out if you have ideas for SSP please.
Yeah Thanks, everyone. All right. Bye, everyone. Bye Thank.
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