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HowStandardsOrganizationsCanAndShouldWorkTogether
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HowStandardsOrganizationsCanAndShouldWorkTogether
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Segment:0 .
All right. Hello, everyone. Good evening, Todd. So, Todd, if you don't mind, I'll just go ahead and jump in. Please please. So thanks, everybody.
Thanks for sticking with us this evening or adjoining on your beautiful Wednesday morning. It's great to see all of you. I once again, I'm Leslie West from a team and I'm joined with one of my favorite folks in standards world Robert Wheeler from AC. And the two of us thought we would take you through some thoughts and comments from today's sessions on standards.
So just to begin, Nicola flory and Ben Ahmed were unable to join us tonight. They send their regrets, though. They are very, very happy if anybody wants to reach out directly to them. They provided their email addresses or certainly an ISO can work with you to make that available. We're very, very happy, though, that is.
Yukiko cattani has joined us from her Tokyo office Wednesday morning in Japan. And we've enjoyed your session very much, akiko, and thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate it. So she'll be here to directly answer any questions. And I know I already have a few questions for you, Akiko. So Robert, would you like to add so we actually have some question for you too.
I mean, why did you join this session and discussion? What interested you and what ideas might you have for some of the challenges posed by our speakers presentations? So Yeah. Robert we'd like to definitely turn this over to the group and hear from you as I think all the speakers touch upon. It's going to be so important for standards organizations to hear from the constituents, to really understand more.
There's so many different directions. We could take, and getting input, especially this evening, would be very helpful to us for sure. I guess, Robert, we should note for those who aren't familiar with ACM and ACM, we do represent two standards developing organizations who have committed a lot of energy and resources to the idea of interoperability, as we've defined it up to now. And certainly working to develop some ISO standards or support the development of ISO standards to align our document structures has been something that our organizations have been committed to.
So it's probably one of the reasons you'll see Robert and I pop up often in sessions like this. So so, yeah, we've worked to develop standards to support interoperability among standards, developers and publishing, which I pointed out. So we have nice hosts, the XML standard or the XML standards tag suite and ISO s.o.s., the standard specific ontology standard focusing on standards lifecycles currently nearing its first release.
We are also co-leading a discussion group on the future state of standards. As in all things, understanding what the communities need is critical to these discussions, and Nikolai kind of pointed that as well. So to turn it back, what does our audience. Consider valuable to interoperability, to our request for interoperability and standards publishing?
What else do we need from the publishers? And I thought I would pitch this to yukiko and let her answer, you know what? What what are based on your presentation and what you heard with the other presenters? What would you say are the top things that publishers need to be considering for interoperability? Well, thank you very much. Well, before answering your question, I also like to tell you I'm also the chair of the business model on iPhone and smart project.
So I'm also deeply committed to the digital transformation efforts of other IC to be able to deliver this. So-called smart standards which are machine readable in India or interpretable standards. And so we are in the middle of the discussion to deliver the smart standards to the market. And and I had the I had a Nicolas presentation quite interesting. And I was wondering what you thought of that then.
I was I was nodding like so many times. Oh, yeah, yeah, you're right. You're right. Then I try. If I were if I were if I were not a part of the Japanese standards association, I would, I would repeat so many topics that are covered my Nicola by Nicola. And, and so from my perspective as the chair of the business model group of the smart standards is first of it and also the interoperability perspective.
One of the challenges for the standards organization to pursue the interoperability, it's, it's actually the coordination between the National standards organization, so it's actually quite challenging. So in I in the US it's the things are a little bit different from the for example from the Asian perspective and perhaps the European perspective. But for example, let's take our example of Japan. So Japan is in Japan we, we are from the Japanese Standards Association.
But and we publish and develop and publish national standards. But we are not the National standards organization. So, so our Japan national organization, national standards organization is, is actually part of the Japanese government. That's why they don't touch, they don't cover the sales and sales and commercial policy. So their sales and commercial policies are our priorities and our responsibility.
So, so we do the commercial policies for the, for the Japanese government. So we have the direct contact with the customers. And, and when we are having a discussion inside Ise on an aichi smart projects and I'm not worried about the technical solutions because technology is so advanced. So we have so, so technical solutions. I think we can find the right solutions if we want to if we are certain, what would be the ideal products or services that we want to deliver?
And what are the products and services that our customers want? So then we can find that we can identify the right technical solutions. But the most challenging part is such a diversity of the member bodies for other and I see if we talk about the eyes on an issue. So for example such us for example in us in Japan, it's part of the National member body, it's part of the government.
And it's also due to so many Asian standards organizations. Also many national standards of organization in Asia are also part of the Japanese government, excuse me, by the government in their national territory. So so we have such a variety between the standards organization, which means we have a different platforms and different types of the business model. So we it's quite challenging to unify or to find the common ground between the standards organization when we pursue the interoperability.
So that is a one challenge because we are such a variety, because our community is such a variety. And also another challenge and another challenge is that we also need to change the mindset of the customers when we focus on the Japanese market. For example, I had a lot of the discussion with our customers in our market. But a lot of them are still not familiar with the idea of the digitalized or smart standards.
So I would say like 60% or 70% of our customers are still prefer to the PDF or paper, so you might be surprised. So even in Japan, a lot of customers are still prefer to have a physical standard. So, so our discussion. So one of the discussions that we had inside of us and IC smart projects is that we also need to change the mindset of the customers that by showing them the possibility or the potential or the new opportunities, by using our new products, a more digitalised product extent, they may be able to automate their processes in their business.
So that mindset changing efforts. Should be made more so that that is another challenge, I think. Very good. Now do you put something in the chart? Do you want to comment? Yeah, I was just thinking about customer needs and I was a product manager before I joined. So and our customer is even in a very small industry, we're really distinct and even prided themselves on their distinctiveness.
And I'm just trying, you know, thinking about the presenters and their different perspectives really kind of. Brought how difficult it must be to try to create some strategy or ideas for connections when, as you say, yukiko, that there's so many differences, how do you do it? Yeah, this is actually my question, asking myself always.
But when I have a discussion with the people from other standards organization, whether they are national region or international, we also find so many similar requests and needs from our customers. For example, a lot of our customers want to receive the notification for the vendor. Certain part of the standards, especially the requirements are changed, the requirements that are related to their products and services or processes then so these requests, so there are so many requests and the customer's needs could be common all across the different standards organizations could be the good starting point.
So we should identify or classify like so many different customer needs that might be common across the community, then we might be able to find the place for the further standardization or interoperability between the standards organization. And I actually think that there are not so many differences between the standards organization about the customer needs, needs or cost.
There are so many variety of the customer needs, but the majority parts of the customer needs could be common whether they are from Japan or the US or Canada. So there must be a common ground that we can start from. Yeah good comments came in from Michael and Andrew and Daisy. Michael, do you want to do you want to comment? I think you were first on the list.
Yeah I was just agreeing on the fact that really the way we're seeing a lot of this is I think some of it went back to the example from the morning part there were showed about the Ford Motor Company. Right I mean, if you were to ask people what they wanted, they wanted more horses and not realizing that an automobile would do much more power. Right in that sense.
And I think that's the problem that we're still facing with a lot of this, is that people have gotten so accustomed to I print it out, I put my stickies on it. I know what I know. I know where it is. I know how to use it. And I move from that. And as you try to explain to them that, well, what happens with that knowledge transfer, what happens if that sticky falls off that page?
What happens if you move out of that role? What happens to all of that understanding of what you've done and how the next person picks it up as opposed to putting it on a different type of a platform that you could highlight. Common keep those notes, share those notes, retain that understanding, and realize what's happened throughout the course of the changes throughout those documents and stuff.
And eventually it'd be great if, if all the CEOs could get on some kind of a platform and share all of our documents. All for that. But easier said than done. And probably our biggest challenge is that our own legal departments for a lot of that stuff is the biggest problem. Yeah, Andrew made a comment to that point. I see you Andrew.
Yeah and I hope everyone saw netease comment to Michael there as well. Very funny that. Yeah, I think the other issue there may be that we could cut a lot of the investigation out and share the commonality of these very basic needs. You can go was talking about customer notifications I think we've all heard customers talk about that and then we develop it on our own platforms, maybe one, maybe two or three platforms, depending on how many you know, how many arms to market that we would have.
And so we've got this huge repetition of effort and almost, well, huge discovery of the repeatedly same issues and then implementation problems as we have our own individualized ways to get our content outwards. Well, what did all of you think about Nicholas comment that maybe we should be banding together to collect user journeys, user stories to make sure we're harmonized as far as what the user community is looking for.
And I think that's what you were speaking to as well, akiko, talking about just the Asian community alone, but also your so I see smart efforts. I believe that group is also looking for user stories. Yes, that's right. So other than a smart project, also has a subgroup dedicated to collecting the user use cases and user stories.
So we are in the process of analyzing the use cases that were there were submitted from various different national standards organization and as well as European standards organizations. So we, we already have some inputs, but these are just the small number of the use cases example. So, so we have to make sure that we are not missing something important.
So, so we are, we are trying to make more, to collect more use cases from national standards organization. But, but this is again, from the National standards organization level. But we also need, I think at certain point, we also need some more inputs from other standards organization. So my belief is that we don't have to always focus on the National standards organizations because the standard organization is such a collection of so many different efforts from various different organizations.
So whether they are national or regional or international, so and we as part of the National level standards organization community, we tend to focus too much, sometimes too much on the National and versus the International level. But but I also aware of. So many different standards of organization outside international or national. So we need to I have a feeling that, that we need more input from many more different organizations.
So and that is why I thoughts Air Force is quite important. So people can people are able to exchange our inputs and maybe the good start that we are seeking a more use cases we are seeking more collection of the use cases from, from many other customers and end users. I don't know my answer the question. No, it's wonderful. I just sitting down and listening to you and Omer and Nicola tonight.
I could have written down, I think, 20 different categories of information that could be considered important in interoperability. But just language alone, to your point is a challenge. Ammar spoke to language as an issue as well. That's just one thing. And it's probably expensive and challenging for publishers to address. So so finding a way to pick out what are the things we could focus on the most that would be the most important would be really helpful.
And again, just without hearing from academia, from librarians, information managers, the engineering communities, other people who use standards, government bodies, it's so hard to could guess. And and may or may not find the right direction. Daisy, you had put a comment in. Did you want to add anything? Not to put you on the spot or anything.
Robert I know we're almost out of time. Do you? Is there anything else you want to add? Oh, good grief. We're already out of time. I feel like we just started. I just want to hit a couple.
I mean, we just had a great discussion, and I definitely don't want to discount what you just said, but going back, where do I start? So going back to the PDFS, I mean, my experience coming up and I didn't I haven't always been part of standards. But coming up through STM, you know, we've built all these bells and whistles and the HTML and the tools. And these platforms and people use those tools.
And then they take the PDF and go away. And we've been seeing that for decades literally. And so I don't think that's going away. You probably know this Leslie and Todd nutty may have heard me rant once in a while, too. Well, I'm sure they have, but maybe not about this. Platforms in general. Nobody wants to be on your platform.
Nobody wants to be on the platform for all the different standards, organizations and standards that they need to use. Going back to yoko's point about the customer needs, I look at it like there could almost be categories of. Who could actually fulfill that need. And it's not just Stanford's organizations. I mean, and I'd love to hear what she thinks about this, but, you know, certain things in that list could be done by the standards organizations, certain things.
Maybe regulators or regulator data could potentially provide it. And then you get to a point where it could only be done by aggregation or like Nicola mentioned, if we all somehow work together and not get in trouble for working together. May I take just saw this question as a although I told that the many standards organizations are in Asia, part of the government.
But but but even so interesting point of standards making its standards are voluntary standards. So what makes our standards quite unique and interesting? They are actually basically voluntary standards. So they are not part of the regulations in their nature in the first place. So so that is why the standards organizations can be the center of the collaboration, the center of the collaboration across the position or organization classification of the organizations, or whether they are regulators or the certification bodies or the corporations.
So the industry. So I think that the nature of the standards organization of making us the voluntary standards makes us unique. So and that is why the standards organization can be a good platform or the place for the collaboration across the different organizations. So, so but when we rely too much on the regulator, then, then it's going to be the framework and the products and standards will be like part of the regulation, but it's not useful or convenient for a lot of the customers.
So I think that the for I think that's why I still believe in the power of the standards organizations. And I think the standards are going to organization needs a good start good starting point to seek the collaboration of the different organizations. So I don't know if I'm answering the question because I'm part of the standards organization, so I want to believe in the possibility and the power of the standards organization maybe.
Andrew I don't know if you want to comment something else. If other standard organizations, as you're speaking, it's almost applying the standards methodology to a bunch of diverse competing in some ways where we collaborate, we share more in this industry than I've observed in other publishing industries, which is my background. But applying this methodology to push harder to get the efficiencies gained that we've touched on just now about sharing what some might consider deeply commercial, valuable gems and insights into our customers.
But if we listen to each other, it sounds like we've got so many commonalities across the world. And so do we. Actually, as organizations see ourselves a whole heap of money to develop things and do things better by applying standardization for this commercialization of our content. That feels like we're talking about that and then taking it, which is exactly what you said you think of like good at getting people from different get driving consensus.
Really hard to put something interesting I just wanted to mention them all. We'll look at Todd's note. I do encourage everybody to go back when I still has the recordings up and take a look at bin Ahmed's presentation. He really walks through the quagmire of finding standards and how impactful it was on his business and how he went from I can't get my product anywhere into any market, but it's a good product.
Why can't I sell it to I'm following standards and suddenly everything's opened up to me. And then he goes on to talk about the interoperability values and what else could be done in the future. But it's, it's that, that to me really yukiko amr's presentation is a user story in and of itself, or user journey. And, and I think that's a nice example of how.
It's the kind of thing if we can focus in on and really understand. It's about supply chains. It is about not only producing in your own region, but also then moving into either your supply chain or your delivering your product to another region and understanding all those components. If everybody can see Todd's note, he was thinking about potentially could an ISO participate in some of this collection of information?
I think that's a very, very interesting idea. And I see you've given me another assignment, Todd. Thanks they're not assignments. I'm just capturing I'm trying to capture in the notes, in the chat here some of the themes or ideas that are coming out of this conversation that I've noticed. Yeah just recognizing we're already kind of over time. But you know, as Robert said, I think this conversation is just starting.
It's not it would be great if we had like another half hour, 45 minutes. OK I do think, though. Does anybody else have anything they would like to share? Again, you have the contact information for our three wonderful speakers. And we really send out our gratitude and Thanks to them to take the time.
Yukiko, you put a lot of effort into getting all that together for us. We do appreciate it. Poor Nicola had just been recovering from a horrible cold. He had to postpone his recording a couple of times, so he apologized for the coughing, but he was finally able to deliver and armor went out of his way to put on his traditional dress for all of you.
Hope you enjoyed that. So so I think with that, Todd, I'll. I'll, I guess we lose the chat as soon as we discontinue, but I will put a list together for you and we can go. I'm saving the chat. I can stay on for a few minutes and just put in some of the ones that I have. But actually it would be worth going back through the presentations and actually really documenting, which I would be happy to do.
Just give me a couple of days' time and we have a hand raised. Debbie Debbie. Hi, Debbie. You're muted here, are you? Now it's probably your audio. How about your. Got it. How about now?
It wasn't muted. It was more complicated than that. I've been lurking. I would like to point out one of the really important things I thought Nicklaus said that you guys have not been picking up on. He pointed out that this was a completely. What had to change was the business you're in. And with smart standards, developing a standard may not be publishing at all.
Yeah new dawn. New day, right? Yeah Yeah. The challenge that we find. Debbie is, and it varies from standards organization to standards organization. But ASTM is one of the organizations where we are 100% dependent on our volunteers.
So we don't hire anybody to be a technical expert and write our standards for us. Now, that's a fine, fair model, and some standards organizations do do that. So when you're dealing with those pesky volunteers, they just, you know, they have their own way of doing things sometimes. And so we can give guidelines. But we also and that's, I think, part of the delight of that quality of standards is that it is so very much driven by the industries that come and volunteer.
But that's a whole other mindset then that has to be adjusted. Yeah you are not alone. We can all name lots of standards, development organizations doing that, but. It is true. You have a whole bunch of volunteers waving and smiling. Volunteer experts and volunteer writers. And you think of yourselves as publishers. And that may not be true for long.
Just saying. Yeah yukiko if you don't know Debbie she was one of the original drafters of actually several structured languages and was a huge part in the development of ISO and nice hosts. I just thought I'd point out your star power. Debbie mulberry technologies was the secretariat that wrote nicely ISO SDS and then ISO cis and Jett. There you go.
And before that SGML. But that's a whole other day. That's a whole other. Yeah oh, Yeah. So but anybody else? This has really been fun. Anyone else have anything they want to share? Michael Holmes.
Who are you with? I'm with you. Oh, OK. We just. We broke into multiple entities. Now we have a USB solution that does all the testing, inspection and certification stuff. And then there's a US Research Institute and now we have standards and engagement, which is what I'm a part of.
Got it. OK so just before we break and the evening or morning, I want to thank all of you for joining us today. Thank you so much for the lively conversation and the presentations we have recorded this. Interestingly, there is a session right now on multilingualism.
Kind of touching on some of the questions that you raised. If you get a chance to take a look at that that recording and we will kick off again tomorrow morning at 930 Eastern. So that is quick in my head. 1430 GMT. It's nice to see you again, Todd. Good seeing you all. We'll see you hopefully tomorrow.
Thanks, everybody. It's a magic day. We've got to be there. Good Thanks again, Akiko. Thank you, Robert. Bye bye. Goodnight
Segment:0 .
All right. Hello, everyone. Good evening, Todd. So, Todd, if you don't mind, I'll just go ahead and jump in. Please please. So thanks, everybody.
Thanks for sticking with us this evening or adjoining on your beautiful Wednesday morning. It's great to see all of you. I once again, I'm Leslie West from a team and I'm joined with one of my favorite folks in standards world Robert Wheeler from AC. And the two of us thought we would take you through some thoughts and comments from today's sessions on standards.
So just to begin, Nicola flory and Ben Ahmed were unable to join us tonight. They send their regrets, though. They are very, very happy if anybody wants to reach out directly to them. They provided their email addresses or certainly an ISO can work with you to make that available. We're very, very happy, though, that is.
Yukiko cattani has joined us from her Tokyo office Wednesday morning in Japan. And we've enjoyed your session very much, akiko, and thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate it. So she'll be here to directly answer any questions. And I know I already have a few questions for you, Akiko. So Robert, would you like to add so we actually have some question for you too.
I mean, why did you join this session and discussion? What interested you and what ideas might you have for some of the challenges posed by our speakers presentations? So Yeah. Robert we'd like to definitely turn this over to the group and hear from you as I think all the speakers touch upon. It's going to be so important for standards organizations to hear from the constituents, to really understand more.
There's so many different directions. We could take, and getting input, especially this evening, would be very helpful to us for sure. I guess, Robert, we should note for those who aren't familiar with ACM and ACM, we do represent two standards developing organizations who have committed a lot of energy and resources to the idea of interoperability, as we've defined it up to now. And certainly working to develop some ISO standards or support the development of ISO standards to align our document structures has been something that our organizations have been committed to.
So it's probably one of the reasons you'll see Robert and I pop up often in sessions like this. So so, yeah, we've worked to develop standards to support interoperability among standards, developers and publishing, which I pointed out. So we have nice hosts, the XML standard or the XML standards tag suite and ISO s.o.s., the standard specific ontology standard focusing on standards lifecycles currently nearing its first release.
We are also co-leading a discussion group on the future state of standards. As in all things, understanding what the communities need is critical to these discussions, and Nikolai kind of pointed that as well. So to turn it back, what does our audience. Consider valuable to interoperability, to our request for interoperability and standards publishing?
What else do we need from the publishers? And I thought I would pitch this to yukiko and let her answer, you know what? What what are based on your presentation and what you heard with the other presenters? What would you say are the top things that publishers need to be considering for interoperability? Well, thank you very much. Well, before answering your question, I also like to tell you I'm also the chair of the business model on iPhone and smart project.
So I'm also deeply committed to the digital transformation efforts of other IC to be able to deliver this. So-called smart standards which are machine readable in India or interpretable standards. And so we are in the middle of the discussion to deliver the smart standards to the market. And and I had the I had a Nicolas presentation quite interesting. And I was wondering what you thought of that then.
I was I was nodding like so many times. Oh, yeah, yeah, you're right. You're right. Then I try. If I were if I were if I were not a part of the Japanese standards association, I would, I would repeat so many topics that are covered my Nicola by Nicola. And, and so from my perspective as the chair of the business model group of the smart standards is first of it and also the interoperability perspective.
One of the challenges for the standards organization to pursue the interoperability, it's, it's actually the coordination between the National standards organization, so it's actually quite challenging. So in I in the US it's the things are a little bit different from the for example from the Asian perspective and perhaps the European perspective. But for example, let's take our example of Japan. So Japan is in Japan we, we are from the Japanese Standards Association.
But and we publish and develop and publish national standards. But we are not the National standards organization. So, so our Japan national organization, national standards organization is, is actually part of the Japanese government. That's why they don't touch, they don't cover the sales and sales and commercial policy. So their sales and commercial policies are our priorities and our responsibility.
So, so we do the commercial policies for the, for the Japanese government. So we have the direct contact with the customers. And, and when we are having a discussion inside Ise on an aichi smart projects and I'm not worried about the technical solutions because technology is so advanced. So we have so, so technical solutions. I think we can find the right solutions if we want to if we are certain, what would be the ideal products or services that we want to deliver?
And what are the products and services that our customers want? So then we can find that we can identify the right technical solutions. But the most challenging part is such a diversity of the member bodies for other and I see if we talk about the eyes on an issue. So for example such us for example in us in Japan, it's part of the National member body, it's part of the government.
And it's also due to so many Asian standards organizations. Also many national standards of organization in Asia are also part of the Japanese government, excuse me, by the government in their national territory. So so we have such a variety between the standards organization, which means we have a different platforms and different types of the business model. So we it's quite challenging to unify or to find the common ground between the standards organization when we pursue the interoperability.
So that is a one challenge because we are such a variety, because our community is such a variety. And also another challenge and another challenge is that we also need to change the mindset of the customers when we focus on the Japanese market. For example, I had a lot of the discussion with our customers in our market. But a lot of them are still not familiar with the idea of the digitalized or smart standards.
So I would say like 60% or 70% of our customers are still prefer to the PDF or paper, so you might be surprised. So even in Japan, a lot of customers are still prefer to have a physical standard. So, so our discussion. So one of the discussions that we had inside of us and IC smart projects is that we also need to change the mindset of the customers that by showing them the possibility or the potential or the new opportunities, by using our new products, a more digitalised product extent, they may be able to automate their processes in their business.
So that mindset changing efforts. Should be made more so that that is another challenge, I think. Very good. Now do you put something in the chart? Do you want to comment? Yeah, I was just thinking about customer needs and I was a product manager before I joined. So and our customer is even in a very small industry, we're really distinct and even prided themselves on their distinctiveness.
And I'm just trying, you know, thinking about the presenters and their different perspectives really kind of. Brought how difficult it must be to try to create some strategy or ideas for connections when, as you say, yukiko, that there's so many differences, how do you do it? Yeah, this is actually my question, asking myself always.
But when I have a discussion with the people from other standards organization, whether they are national region or international, we also find so many similar requests and needs from our customers. For example, a lot of our customers want to receive the notification for the vendor. Certain part of the standards, especially the requirements are changed, the requirements that are related to their products and services or processes then so these requests, so there are so many requests and the customer's needs could be common all across the different standards organizations could be the good starting point.
So we should identify or classify like so many different customer needs that might be common across the community, then we might be able to find the place for the further standardization or interoperability between the standards organization. And I actually think that there are not so many differences between the standards organization about the customer needs, needs or cost.
There are so many variety of the customer needs, but the majority parts of the customer needs could be common whether they are from Japan or the US or Canada. So there must be a common ground that we can start from. Yeah good comments came in from Michael and Andrew and Daisy. Michael, do you want to do you want to comment? I think you were first on the list.
Yeah I was just agreeing on the fact that really the way we're seeing a lot of this is I think some of it went back to the example from the morning part there were showed about the Ford Motor Company. Right I mean, if you were to ask people what they wanted, they wanted more horses and not realizing that an automobile would do much more power. Right in that sense.
And I think that's the problem that we're still facing with a lot of this, is that people have gotten so accustomed to I print it out, I put my stickies on it. I know what I know. I know where it is. I know how to use it. And I move from that. And as you try to explain to them that, well, what happens with that knowledge transfer, what happens if that sticky falls off that page?
What happens if you move out of that role? What happens to all of that understanding of what you've done and how the next person picks it up as opposed to putting it on a different type of a platform that you could highlight. Common keep those notes, share those notes, retain that understanding, and realize what's happened throughout the course of the changes throughout those documents and stuff.
And eventually it'd be great if, if all the CEOs could get on some kind of a platform and share all of our documents. All for that. But easier said than done. And probably our biggest challenge is that our own legal departments for a lot of that stuff is the biggest problem. Yeah, Andrew made a comment to that point. I see you Andrew.
Yeah and I hope everyone saw netease comment to Michael there as well. Very funny that. Yeah, I think the other issue there may be that we could cut a lot of the investigation out and share the commonality of these very basic needs. You can go was talking about customer notifications I think we've all heard customers talk about that and then we develop it on our own platforms, maybe one, maybe two or three platforms, depending on how many you know, how many arms to market that we would have.
And so we've got this huge repetition of effort and almost, well, huge discovery of the repeatedly same issues and then implementation problems as we have our own individualized ways to get our content outwards. Well, what did all of you think about Nicholas comment that maybe we should be banding together to collect user journeys, user stories to make sure we're harmonized as far as what the user community is looking for.
And I think that's what you were speaking to as well, akiko, talking about just the Asian community alone, but also your so I see smart efforts. I believe that group is also looking for user stories. Yes, that's right. So other than a smart project, also has a subgroup dedicated to collecting the user use cases and user stories.
So we are in the process of analyzing the use cases that were there were submitted from various different national standards organization and as well as European standards organizations. So we, we already have some inputs, but these are just the small number of the use cases example. So, so we have to make sure that we are not missing something important.
So, so we are, we are trying to make more, to collect more use cases from national standards organization. But, but this is again, from the National standards organization level. But we also need, I think at certain point, we also need some more inputs from other standards organization. So my belief is that we don't have to always focus on the National standards organizations because the standard organization is such a collection of so many different efforts from various different organizations.
So whether they are national or regional or international, so and we as part of the National level standards organization community, we tend to focus too much, sometimes too much on the National and versus the International level. But but I also aware of. So many different standards of organization outside international or national. So we need to I have a feeling that, that we need more input from many more different organizations.
So and that is why I thoughts Air Force is quite important. So people can people are able to exchange our inputs and maybe the good start that we are seeking a more use cases we are seeking more collection of the use cases from, from many other customers and end users. I don't know my answer the question. No, it's wonderful. I just sitting down and listening to you and Omer and Nicola tonight.
I could have written down, I think, 20 different categories of information that could be considered important in interoperability. But just language alone, to your point is a challenge. Ammar spoke to language as an issue as well. That's just one thing. And it's probably expensive and challenging for publishers to address. So so finding a way to pick out what are the things we could focus on the most that would be the most important would be really helpful.
And again, just without hearing from academia, from librarians, information managers, the engineering communities, other people who use standards, government bodies, it's so hard to could guess. And and may or may not find the right direction. Daisy, you had put a comment in. Did you want to add anything? Not to put you on the spot or anything.
Robert I know we're almost out of time. Do you? Is there anything else you want to add? Oh, good grief. We're already out of time. I feel like we just started. I just want to hit a couple.
I mean, we just had a great discussion, and I definitely don't want to discount what you just said, but going back, where do I start? So going back to the PDFS, I mean, my experience coming up and I didn't I haven't always been part of standards. But coming up through STM, you know, we've built all these bells and whistles and the HTML and the tools. And these platforms and people use those tools.
And then they take the PDF and go away. And we've been seeing that for decades literally. And so I don't think that's going away. You probably know this Leslie and Todd nutty may have heard me rant once in a while, too. Well, I'm sure they have, but maybe not about this. Platforms in general. Nobody wants to be on your platform.
Nobody wants to be on the platform for all the different standards, organizations and standards that they need to use. Going back to yoko's point about the customer needs, I look at it like there could almost be categories of. Who could actually fulfill that need. And it's not just Stanford's organizations. I mean, and I'd love to hear what she thinks about this, but, you know, certain things in that list could be done by the standards organizations, certain things.
Maybe regulators or regulator data could potentially provide it. And then you get to a point where it could only be done by aggregation or like Nicola mentioned, if we all somehow work together and not get in trouble for working together. May I take just saw this question as a although I told that the many standards organizations are in Asia, part of the government.
But but but even so interesting point of standards making its standards are voluntary standards. So what makes our standards quite unique and interesting? They are actually basically voluntary standards. So they are not part of the regulations in their nature in the first place. So so that is why the standards organizations can be the center of the collaboration, the center of the collaboration across the position or organization classification of the organizations, or whether they are regulators or the certification bodies or the corporations.
So the industry. So I think that the nature of the standards organization of making us the voluntary standards makes us unique. So and that is why the standards organization can be a good platform or the place for the collaboration across the different organizations. So, so but when we rely too much on the regulator, then, then it's going to be the framework and the products and standards will be like part of the regulation, but it's not useful or convenient for a lot of the customers.
So I think that the for I think that's why I still believe in the power of the standards organizations. And I think the standards are going to organization needs a good start good starting point to seek the collaboration of the different organizations. So I don't know if I'm answering the question because I'm part of the standards organization, so I want to believe in the possibility and the power of the standards organization maybe.
Andrew I don't know if you want to comment something else. If other standard organizations, as you're speaking, it's almost applying the standards methodology to a bunch of diverse competing in some ways where we collaborate, we share more in this industry than I've observed in other publishing industries, which is my background. But applying this methodology to push harder to get the efficiencies gained that we've touched on just now about sharing what some might consider deeply commercial, valuable gems and insights into our customers.
But if we listen to each other, it sounds like we've got so many commonalities across the world. And so do we. Actually, as organizations see ourselves a whole heap of money to develop things and do things better by applying standardization for this commercialization of our content. That feels like we're talking about that and then taking it, which is exactly what you said you think of like good at getting people from different get driving consensus.
Really hard to put something interesting I just wanted to mention them all. We'll look at Todd's note. I do encourage everybody to go back when I still has the recordings up and take a look at bin Ahmed's presentation. He really walks through the quagmire of finding standards and how impactful it was on his business and how he went from I can't get my product anywhere into any market, but it's a good product.
Why can't I sell it to I'm following standards and suddenly everything's opened up to me. And then he goes on to talk about the interoperability values and what else could be done in the future. But it's, it's that, that to me really yukiko amr's presentation is a user story in and of itself, or user journey. And, and I think that's a nice example of how.
It's the kind of thing if we can focus in on and really understand. It's about supply chains. It is about not only producing in your own region, but also then moving into either your supply chain or your delivering your product to another region and understanding all those components. If everybody can see Todd's note, he was thinking about potentially could an ISO participate in some of this collection of information?
I think that's a very, very interesting idea. And I see you've given me another assignment, Todd. Thanks they're not assignments. I'm just capturing I'm trying to capture in the notes, in the chat here some of the themes or ideas that are coming out of this conversation that I've noticed. Yeah just recognizing we're already kind of over time. But you know, as Robert said, I think this conversation is just starting.
It's not it would be great if we had like another half hour, 45 minutes. OK I do think, though. Does anybody else have anything they would like to share? Again, you have the contact information for our three wonderful speakers. And we really send out our gratitude and Thanks to them to take the time.
Yukiko, you put a lot of effort into getting all that together for us. We do appreciate it. Poor Nicola had just been recovering from a horrible cold. He had to postpone his recording a couple of times, so he apologized for the coughing, but he was finally able to deliver and armor went out of his way to put on his traditional dress for all of you.
Hope you enjoyed that. So so I think with that, Todd, I'll. I'll, I guess we lose the chat as soon as we discontinue, but I will put a list together for you and we can go. I'm saving the chat. I can stay on for a few minutes and just put in some of the ones that I have. But actually it would be worth going back through the presentations and actually really documenting, which I would be happy to do.
Just give me a couple of days' time and we have a hand raised. Debbie Debbie. Hi, Debbie. You're muted here, are you? Now it's probably your audio. How about your. Got it. How about now?
It wasn't muted. It was more complicated than that. I've been lurking. I would like to point out one of the really important things I thought Nicklaus said that you guys have not been picking up on. He pointed out that this was a completely. What had to change was the business you're in. And with smart standards, developing a standard may not be publishing at all.
Yeah new dawn. New day, right? Yeah Yeah. The challenge that we find. Debbie is, and it varies from standards organization to standards organization. But ASTM is one of the organizations where we are 100% dependent on our volunteers.
So we don't hire anybody to be a technical expert and write our standards for us. Now, that's a fine, fair model, and some standards organizations do do that. So when you're dealing with those pesky volunteers, they just, you know, they have their own way of doing things sometimes. And so we can give guidelines. But we also and that's, I think, part of the delight of that quality of standards is that it is so very much driven by the industries that come and volunteer.
But that's a whole other mindset then that has to be adjusted. Yeah you are not alone. We can all name lots of standards, development organizations doing that, but. It is true. You have a whole bunch of volunteers waving and smiling. Volunteer experts and volunteer writers. And you think of yourselves as publishers. And that may not be true for long.
Just saying. Yeah yukiko if you don't know Debbie she was one of the original drafters of actually several structured languages and was a huge part in the development of ISO and nice hosts. I just thought I'd point out your star power. Debbie mulberry technologies was the secretariat that wrote nicely ISO SDS and then ISO cis and Jett. There you go.
And before that SGML. But that's a whole other day. That's a whole other. Yeah oh, Yeah. So but anybody else? This has really been fun. Anyone else have anything they want to share? Michael Holmes.
Who are you with? I'm with you. Oh, OK. We just. We broke into multiple entities. Now we have a USB solution that does all the testing, inspection and certification stuff. And then there's a US Research Institute and now we have standards and engagement, which is what I'm a part of.
Got it. OK so just before we break and the evening or morning, I want to thank all of you for joining us today. Thank you so much for the lively conversation and the presentations we have recorded this. Interestingly, there is a session right now on multilingualism.
Kind of touching on some of the questions that you raised. If you get a chance to take a look at that that recording and we will kick off again tomorrow morning at 930 Eastern. So that is quick in my head. 1430 GMT. It's nice to see you again, Todd. Good seeing you all. We'll see you hopefully tomorrow.
Thanks, everybody. It's a magic day. We've got to be there. Good Thanks again, Akiko. Thank you, Robert. Bye bye. Goodnight
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