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Libraries and the importance of infrastructure
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Libraries and the importance of infrastructure
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Upload Date:
2021-08-23T00:00:00.0000000
Transcript:
Language: EN.
Segment:0 .
[MUSIC PLAYING]
SANDRA HIRSH: Hi, and welcome to the NISO PLUS session on libraries and the importance of infrastructure. I am very pleased that you've chosen to join us today for this presentation. This session focuses on how libraries can enhance open research infrastructure by providing end-to-end services for researchers, and where libraries can help with open, supportive infrastructure for publishing and its outcomes.
SANDRA HIRSH: My name is Sandy Hirsch, and I'm serving as your moderator today. And I'm the Associate Dean for Academics at the College of Professional and Global Education at San Jose State University. I'm also President of the Association for Library and Information Science Education, and it's been my pleasure to participate as a member of the NISO PLUS Planning Committee this year.
SANDRA HIRSH: We have, with us, today, four outstanding speakers who will address the topic. We have Jody Bailey, who is the Head of the Scholarly Communications Office at Emory University Library. She leads a team of librarians and library specialists who are responsible for all library services surrounding copyright, open access and publishing, research data management, and open educational resources. Jody has served on the Library Publishing Coalition's Board of Directors since 2018, and is the current Board President.
SANDRA HIRSH: We also have Brandon Locke, who works at Educopia Institute, where he is the Project Manager of the Library Publishing Workflows project. And he contributes to a number of other scholarly communications projects. We also have Christopher Spalding, VP of Product Management for Research Workflow Solutions at EBSCO.
SANDRA HIRSH: With a background in research libraries and infrastructure, his key interest since joining EBSCO in 2015 has been focused on open-- open source communities, open infrastructure, open science, open data, and open access publishing. And we also have Michelle Urberg, who has a PhD in music history and a master's in library and information science. She is currently working as a consultant with Maverick Publishing Specialists as an expert on digital asset information flows, metadata and publishing, and discovery of content.
SANDRA HIRSH: She is the champion of digital humanities, and has recently published work on how to improve discovery of digital humanities projects. Each of our speakers will speak for up to about 10 minutes, and after they finish their presentations, we look forward to having an engaging conversation with you about this topic. So we have put together this poll.
SANDRA HIRSH: The question that we'd like you to think about and to answer-- and so I'd like to encourage you to take this poll now. You can see the link on the screen here. And this question that we want you to think about and to respond to is, what do you think is the biggest challenge in the open research lifecycle? We've identified the following options for you to consider. So our plan is that we will review the results from the poll after the presentation, and we'll look forward to breaking into discussion groups, where we can discuss these questions for these topics further.
SANDRA HIRSH: So please go ahead and complete this poll now. I'd like to now introduce our first speaker, Jody Bailey.
JODY BAILEY: Thank you so much, Sandy. And again, my name is Jody Bailey. I'm excited to be here with everyone. Thank you for attending our session. I'm coming to you from Atlanta, Georgia, and welcome to our session. I'm going to move forward with a discussion about library publishing services, and Brandon will follow me and talk a little bit more about infrastructure and workflows.
JODY BAILEY: OK, so I wanted to start by talking a little bit about the fact that libraries do now directly support, and are involved in every stage of the information or research lifecycle-- whichever way you want to think about it. We are there at the creating portion of it, or the creating stage-- the inception, where ideas are generated, research is done, and the literature-- things like that.
JODY BAILEY: But now we are-- and that's kind of always been a space for us, but we're really now getting involved in the production of knowledge. And that is one area where library publishing has really grown, is in knowledge production, the transformation of research results into printed printed products or digital products, as well as disseminating those results. Preservation is a game we've always played, but now we're preserving the production of our own research results as well.
JODY BAILEY: I wanted to also start with a brief definition of library publishing. This is from the Library Publishing Coalition. It's a set of activities led by university libraries to support creation, dissemination, and curation of scholarly, creative, or educational works. All of that should sound familiar from that last slide I talked about in the information lifecycle.
JODY BAILEY: Creation, dissemination, curation, and preservation of these materials is definitely an area in which libraries are really starting to get involved. Library publishing is often characterized by openness, and mainly open access, as well as inclusiveness. So we generally are inclusive of some voices that are sometimes not included in the products, say, of commercial publishers-- especially student voices.
JODY BAILEY: And we're also very involved in ideas around sustainability of the products that we're producing, and being able to preserve them. I've got some key characteristics down there. Responsiveness to our campus communities is a big part of what we do, offering some core services that I'm going to talk about in just a moment. Very much, working in partnership with our faculty and students across our campuses is another big part of what we do.
JODY BAILEY: Open access, once again, is key to our values as library publishers. A really wonderful area is experimentation, because we can often afford to do experimental projects that commercial publishers may shy away from. So that's really something that's interesting about library publishing efforts. And also, pedagogy-- we are interested in helping people learn about publishing.
JODY BAILEY: So we often do include students, either as folks who are working on the journals to help produce them. We include students as authors, and we also might have journals that are student-led, where it's just the students who are doing the driving of the publishing process. Some other unique characteristics of journal publishing-- I mentioned open access, but I haven't mentioned the fact that it's usually platinum open access.
JODY BAILEY: So that means that neither the author has to pay to publish, nor does the reader have to pay to read the material. The vast majority of products produced by libraries and library publishing efforts are platinum open access. There might be a few where there's some financial transactions involved, but very few. Our disciplinary focus-- and this isn't really on purpose, it's just kind of worked out this way-- tends to be humanities and social sciences.
JODY BAILEY: Now, that's not the case 100% across the board, but I would say we tend to be a little bit more heavy in the humanities and social sciences than we are in the STEM disciplines, mainly because-- honestly, I think the commercial publishers are not necessarily going to be as eager to take on a new humanities journal, because they just don't make as much money on them. So we would often be willing-- and eager, in fact-- to take up and work with a faculty member on our campus on a humanities journal that might not otherwise find a home.
JODY BAILEY: And then we are strongly connected to the educational mission of our institutions-- as I mentioned earlier, so I'm not going to go into any more detail on that. Some of the services that we provide are included below. Some of these are really core services-- those core services I mentioned earlier-- and some of them are a little bit more ancillary. Library publishing staff-- like, the number of staff that a given library can allocate to work on publishing efforts-- often vary widely from library to library.
JODY BAILEY: So sometimes, at some libraries, you might find that only one person is working on the library publishing effort. And in that case, it's probably the only services they might provide-- are getting those digital identifiers, getting the platform set up, continuing to provide that platform, and then hosting that content. And most of the rest of the things on that list might fall away.
JODY BAILEY: However, there are other library publishers that provide all of these services, and probably more. So it really does vary quite a bit. Also varying quite a bit are the organizational aspects of library publishing. So publishing units, or publishing staff members, can be located in various administrative units. They may be in the digital scholarship center if a given campus has one.
JODY BAILEY: That's the way it is on my campus at Emory. IUPUI is also sort of organized that way. There are also, as I'm sure many of you are aware, university presses have often been, over the past couple of decades, being brought in to the library's organizational structure. And in that case, sometimes those publishing efforts between university presses and publishing folks in the libraries-- there might be some partnerships going on there that have been very fruitful for several campuses, including University of Michigan with Michigan Publishing, and UNT Libraries Scholarly Publishing Services.
JODY BAILEY: Sometimes it's the scholarly communication office, as at KU, that does the publishing work, and sometimes publishing efforts may take place in one or two different units in the libraries, as at UT Arlington. So I'm sure most of you are familiar with institutional repositories and the kinds of things that they publish.
JODY BAILEY: I did want to not gloss over that, though. I did want to acknowledge the fact that that is part of library publishing. We publish original research in the form of theses and dissertations, conference materials, grade literature, et cetera. And then oftentimes, institutional repositories contain copies of journal articles that are published elsewhere-- perhaps by commercial publishers or society publishers.
JODY BAILEY: On the right, you see some of the platforms that are used in libraries to spin up an institutional repository. And I don't think this was mentioned earlier, so I'll mention it now-- a copy of our slide deck will be made available, and these links are live, so you can explore them later on. Libraries also publish more traditional formats-- so things like journals, books, textbooks-- as well as expansive digital projects and data sets are becoming more and more common.
JODY BAILEY: So again, some of the platforms we use are listed on the right. I do want to point out that the things with the little asterisk after them are the open source platforms, which librarians love. And we love them because we know we can have complete 100% control over them, rather than working with a vendor who we may not have as much control over the platform if we do that. I've also got some examples of different types of journals here, and you can see that they come from various disciplines, also from various library publishers.
JODY BAILEY: Many of the library publishers on this list are some of the most prolific of the library publishers out there, publishing 40 or more titles at a given campus. So there are obviously some campuses that are only publishing maybe one or two titles. You can see, also, the platforms that each one of these is on on the right. So Open Journal Systems is probably the most popular platform for journal publishing.
JODY BAILEY: We do have some members in the Library Publishing Coalition still using Digital Commons. It's popular among libraries who don't have a lot of technical infrastructure staff to help support. Since that is a vendor-based tool, the library can rely on the vendors for all the tech support. WordPress is used by my library to publish journals.
JODY BAILEY: It's a highly customized version of Wordpress, but it is nonetheless the platform that's used. And University of California has its own bespoke platform that they use called eScholarship Publishing. I also wanted to include some examples of other materials-- and I really do encourage you to explore the journals, as well as some of the links to these other materials that are being put out by library publishers so you can see the amazing work that's being done.
JODY BAILEY: The expansive digital projects are really superb, as are some of the books and textbooks that are being produced. And that is really it for me. I will go on to let you know that there are some references here if you want to check them out. And I had one further-- OK, that's my last slide. It's got my contact information.
JODY BAILEY: Please feel free to email me if you have any questions.
BRANDON LOCKE: Hi, everyone. I'm Brandon-- oh, sorry.
SANDRA HIRSH: Oh, I was just going to make the transition to Brandon. Thank you so much, Jody, for that presentation, and go ahead, Brandon.
BRANDON LOCKE: Sorry for the false start. I'm Brandon Locke, and I work at Educopia Institute. I'll be giving a quick introduction to a couple of library publishing projects that I've been involved with in Educopia. I'll define how I think about library publishing infrastructure, and then I'll go on to talk about some of the primary challenges that we've heard discussed regarding that infrastructure.
BRANDON LOCKE: OK, Library Publishing Workflows is an IMLS funded collaborative research project undertaken by Educopia Institute, the Library Publishing Coalition, and 12 North American library publishers. Through the course of this project, we're developing workflow documentation on the workflows used by libraries in the course of publishing academic journals. So again, it's focused specifically on journals.
BRANDON LOCKE: We're also convening in a number of conversations regarding things like shared pain points, challenges, and gaps within both the cohort of our partners, and the broader LPC community. Again, the slides are available for download, and you can follow the link on that slide for more information about the project, as well as some of our early deliverables.
BRANDON LOCKE: I'm also a contributor to the Arcadia-funded Next Generation Library Publishing Project, or NGLP, which is a project of California Digital Library, the Confederation of Open Access Repositories, Educopia Institute, Longleaf Services , LYRASIA, and Stratos. This is a really huge project, and I don't really have the time here to talk about everything that's happening with it.
BRANDON LOCKE: But I did want to point to a couple of NGLP components that I think will be relevant later on. NGLP is funding the development of tools, pathways, and documentation to unite a common open source tools and platforms to improve interoperability. At the time of this recording, I'm not sure if our next announcement will come out before or after this panel. So be on the lookout, either for something coming soon or something that's recently come out.
BRANDON LOCKE: Another project from NGLP is SComCat, which is a knowledge base of scholcomm technologies, along with information about them, like governance, licensing, what kind of technologies are underlying it. This just launched in late January, and there's also-- there's an opportunity to contribute technologies that aren't currently involved. So that's, hopefully, a valuable resource for the community, now and in the future.
BRANDON LOCKE: And finally, over the last year or so, NGLP has released a series of resources for the assessment of values and principles employed by members of the scholarly communications community, based largely on the different values and principle statements released by organizations and service providers and things like that. So I want to quickly highlight the infrastructure that we talk about with our partners.
BRANDON LOCKE: So this is coming very much from, sort of like, my perspective talking with library staff, where I see it as sort of like-- there's a library. There's the technology they use. And then there's sort of the external partners-- the service providers and the vendors. I think it's important just to add the library staff component.
BRANDON LOCKE: Not everyone necessarily sees labor as infrastructure, but the folks in the library coordinate with editors, with service providers, and they are just really essential to keeping everything moving. The slide here has a non-exhaustive list of software and platforms mentioned by our 12 library partners, including some obvious things like journal management systems, some essential tools that we might take for granted, like Microsoft Word or email, and some things like homemade XSLT scripts that fill in the gaps left behind by platforms.
BRANDON LOCKE: And the third major piece is vendors and service providers. This is a pretty broad category of folks who host platforms, do things like typesetting or creating XML, provide preservation, and things like that. Moving on to some of the challenges. In terms of staff, nobody here is probably surprised to hear the many library publishers feel a bit understaffed or have other coverage issues.
BRANDON LOCKE: Publishers often have to balance publishing work with other scholcomm or library work. So in other words, they're maybe working at a service desk or promoting education about open access, things like that. And they often have to choose between scaling up their general programs or providing custom services to a small number of journals. Right. So the more they take on, the more they have to just run with templates and sort of like treat everyone the same.
BRANDON LOCKE: A number of our partners also mentioned that losing a staff person can really be devastating both because of the loss of institutional knowledge, and also because those positions can be hard to fill, and you're often left without someone doing that task for potentially several months. And related to this, the sort of staff issue, is a lack of control over the workflow. On the one hand, editors are understandably pretty resistant to change.
BRANDON LOCKE: So a lot of times there needs to be, sort of, mediation about trying to change platforms or changes the way that publishing workloads are run. And at the same time, publishing tasks often come in really irregular large batches. A few people mentioned that when the semester ends, the editors who were are also faculty, turn to their journals and finish up a whole bunch of articles and send them out.
BRANDON LOCKE: So again, the workload is just always changing a lot. It makes it really hard to, sort of, plan for the future and, again, balance the needs of the publishing program with other job responsibilities. Another issue is diversity, equity, and inclusion. This is, of course, a huge issue in the scholcomm world, where both publisher and librarian populations in the US are well above 80% white.
BRANDON LOCKE: DEI is also one of the most commonly cited values in the scholcomm and open science world. And the field really hasn't caught up with the values that they are highlighting. So the lack of diversity, equity, inclusion contributes to homogeneity of literature and is also a barrier to an equitable and healthy ecosystem. It's also important to keep in mind, as we've seen with some of the critiques of plan s or conversations regarding Beall's predatory list, things like that, that scholcomm policy decisions and resources in the global North can work to the detriment of the global South.
BRANDON LOCKE: The next challenge is the interfaces and, sort of like, transfers between technologies. As I mentioned earlier, the publishing workflows can be a really huge web of different pieces of technology. So publishers are constantly passing data between them. There are lots of automated handoffs like plug-ins and APIs, and those generally save a lot of time, but there's always a chance for error.
BRANDON LOCKE: So a lot of our partners reported running processes and then having to sort of manually check and make sure that everything worked correctly. And, of course, there's often a lot of downloading from one platform and uploading into another. We're downloading and sending an email and then taking revisions and uploading it again, that sort of thing.
BRANDON LOCKE: It's a lot of sort of hands-on work, and it can be really time consuming and inefficient. All right. And finally, we've reached what I think is probably the elephant in the room. One of the most commonly discussed challenges in library publishing and in the broader scholcomm world is that of a few really large entities buying up pieces of infrastructure.
BRANDON LOCKE: This means that libraries are increasingly forced to work with service providers whose values and principles don't line up with those of the library or the broader academic world. Here, I want to point back to the values and principles aspect of NGOP, including the piece I have linked here. And the assessment framework that provides a starting place-- it provides a starting place to piece together infrastructure and service providers that are more in line with the library goals.
BRANDON LOCKE: I just want to add that there's plenty of room for for profit service providers in this space. But those that put increasing shareholder value far, far above the widely held academic values like openness, access, and representative governments, are sort of the issue that we're grappling with. And I think that checklist does a great job of allowing for lots of different types of players within this space, being academy owned, nonprofit, and for profit, while keeping those values sort of at the center.
BRANDON LOCKE: And thanks for your attention. I'm looking forward to the interactive portion of this. And please don't hesitate to get in touch with me or follow up on the links to either of the projects I've talked about.
SANDRA HIRSH: Thank you so much, Brandon, for that great presentation. I'd like to now hand it over to Christopher.
CHRISTOPHER SPALDING: Thank you, Brandon. I really enjoyed that, especially the last slide around a note of vendor and vendor participation in some of these communities. My name is Christopher Spalding. I am from EBSCO. I work on the open side of EBSCO that is focused on open source projects, open science, open infrastructure, et cetera.
CHRISTOPHER SPALDING: We partner with a number of open collaboration platforms, as well as participate in really the library spaces largest open source project at this time. What I would like to focus though on today. Sorry I'm having some problems controlling my screen.
CHRISTOPHER SPALDING: So I'm going to be talking about how libraries and vendors alike can support research and open infrastructure, looking at ways to support researcher needs to conduct and share their work, while considering how the library on its part can best collect, preserve, disseminate, and manage the research.
CHRISTOPHER SPALDING: I think this is a good place to start looking at the activities and tools, many of them already mentioned in the previous two presentations-- the tools involved in open research workflows. Bianca Kramer and Jeroen Bosman at the Utrecht University Library in the Netherlands focused on research creation, sharing, and processing. So these activities, which are outlined in their blog range from preparation to discovery, analysis, writing, publication, outreach and assessment.
CHRISTOPHER SPALDING: So across these tasks, the available tools number, honestly, in the hundreds, as documented at the URL at the site noted below. And researchers have a multitude of ways to ensure their research and workflows indeed open. The questions we need to ask then center not just on how best across these activities researchers can conduct and share their work in the most optimal ways, but more specifically what role the library fulfills in collecting, disseminating, research.
CHRISTOPHER SPALDING: And when I say research, I mean the underpinnings of the published articles, as well, not just the final publication. So may be stating the obvious, but when we think of work and the types of works we include our collections, we must really think beyond books and journals, which reach Jodi has already noted.
CHRISTOPHER SPALDING: These works include the underpinnings of the research-- the code, data, methods, protocols, surveys, which are often of course produced within the institution itself. And we need to think of these as first class citizens where leverage within our collections used for teaching and learning, but also preserved and kept for long-term access.
CHRISTOPHER SPALDING: So to illustrate the points, let's take a graph, which was published in an F1000 research article. You can see the article on the right, with the embedded graph above it. Other than illustrating the analysis, the graph itself really doesn't provide insight into the underlying code and data or the exact computational environments or platform that was used.
CHRISTOPHER SPALDING: And so without that access, other researchers can't reproduce or use the work in support of open science goals or mandates. So really this begs the question, how are our data, code, and methods managed today so these outputs can be discovered, can be easily accessed, can be preserved, represented within the library's collection, kept by institution.
CHRISTOPHER SPALDING: Even if researchers leave, they don't necessarily leave with the data or that output used in the classroom as part of teaching and learning. And on the last point here, how can we support researchers in their work in a way that provides them with the right platforms, so they can work more efficiently, adhere to the data management plans and policies of their institution, and include research outputs within the publishing workflows that the library is providing, all while keeping the two first objectives in mind-- the ability of the library to better collect these outputs and to provide for better discovery and dissemination.
CHRISTOPHER SPALDING: So to address the challenges, one approach is to start in fact by capturing the outputs where researchers do their work, platforms where they collect their data or do their computational code, or platforms used for reporting, publishing, and then integrating these different research or platforms within the library supported platforms.
CHRISTOPHER SPALDING: So this allows us to automatically deposit outputs into the institutional repository, automatically collect for long-term preservation, harvest for discovery, the ability to easily use in the classroom in support of teaching and learning, the ability to easily pull into graph technologies for linkages to understand or to surface new insights.
CHRISTOPHER SPALDING: So once we capture these outputs, we can also start to enrich the data, which will support and prove discovery and dissemination. We can do this by leveraging additional sources, these examples which I note here on the right of the slide-- basically identifiers that we can pipe in as part of that flow and then again to harvest into graph technology.
CHRISTOPHER SPALDING: Now, of course, you know libraries can indeed have a say or provide input into the platforms that researchers may use. In fact, in this matter, we can attain multiple objectives enabling greater efficiency in research, supporting open science goals and mandates, while through different integrations, support better discovery and dissemination of the research.
CHRISTOPHER SPALDING: So as we do our breakouts, I'll be very interested in discussing or talking about ways we can attach or pipe these various platforms into the current workflows. But to basically summarize, I see we can bring researchers and library together where the library provides researchers those platforms that enable them to work more efficiently, readily reuse, reproduce, and get credit for the work that the researcher does, improve collaboration, allow support for teaching and learning, and easily support current publishing workflows within the library.
CHRISTOPHER SPALDING: While at the same time by supporting researchers in their work, the library supports open science goals, helps accelerate research, and can collect and preserve the output for improved discovery and access. So again, I look forward to the breakouts that are about to come out. But I believe Michelle will talk next to discuss, kind of at a high level now, these questions that we are thinking about.
SANDRA HIRSH: Thank you so much, Christopher. And yes, we'll be transitioning now to Michelle.
MICHELLE URBERG: Have to unmute myself. Welcome. I come to you from Seattle, Washington, and I am very happy to be here today. Let me see here. I'm gonna just move this up here. Remember to participate in the poll, if you have not done so already. You can see the link there.
MICHELLE URBERG: We'll take a look at the responses before we leap into the discussion, and then your answers will help guide our discussion following this presentation. So Jody, Brandon, and Christopher have presented three different perspectives on opportunities for improving open infrastructure in the research lifecycle.
MICHELLE URBERG: We've touched on the status of open infrastructure in books, journals, and thankfully we've mentioned other works like data sets and code. And I would add to that video, another audio visual material, which is growing in importance in this landscape. In these last five minutes or so though, I would like to tease out some larger scale ideas that drive these talks and link them into the community oriented standards, the work that actually NISO does on a day to day basis.
MICHELLE URBERG: We are in an unusual time right now, which is forcing digital transformation all across scholarly publishing, in libraries and in higher education. Many of us are part of organizations that are supporting publication discovery or retention of materials, outputs that we've already discussed. And in these various roles confronting how to reimagine our processes as digital outputs more than print outputs.
MICHELLE URBERG: It's not only bottom lines that are forcing this change but also our shared missions, which Brandon alluded to, of course, to be relevant in the research and learning needs of everyone who engages in the research lifecycle. While we struggle with scaling in the open digital transformation, it is important to remember that many of our existing infrastructures are actually made possible based on open technologies and standards.
MICHELLE URBERG: In some areas, therefore, we don't actually need to reinvent the wheel. We just need to remember that we have it at our disposal. I encourage you to read Bill Kasdorf's recent opinion piece in Martin publishing, which reminds us all that existent content data and metadata flows are possible through things like open markup languages, such as XML and the PDF standard. XML is still primarily used in the 1.0 version, which came out in 1998.
MICHELLE URBERG: And PDF was released from Adobe's proprietary control in 2008 and was transformed into an NISO standard. Now I don't want to get too far into the weeds about markup languages or standards or, for that matter, schema and controlled vocabularies, which are two other key pieces for facilitating exchange of digital research outputs. Suffice it to say, however, that the infrastructure successes and infrastructure challenges facing the open research space can be framed in terms of standards of the kind that the NISO community has developed and continues to support.
MICHELLE URBERG: The more standardized data enrichment, for example, the more discovery of content, the better we support the entire ecosystem. In other core corners of the research ecosystem, we do need to stretch ourselves to reimagine a new research landscape. Those who know me, I'm always excited to support using the standard or choosing metadata with a controlled vocabulary to make information sharing easier or less time consuming and less prone to error.
MICHELLE URBERG: But in this research space, standardization of information and information sharing is actually, I feel, more important than developing a list of plug and play information to include. It will be built through community agreements, describing standardized workflows, and workflows that then flow into institutional repositories, library service platforms, publishing platforms, and then on out to end users, particularly the researchers that we all want to support.
MICHELLE URBERG: There we go. So where do we go from here? These community agreements are the stretch goal. The infrastructure of which we dream will not scale reliably, I think, until at least some of the burdens placed on librarians, library staff, and others in the open research ecosystem have larger scale policy and procedural support for software vendors and service providers, metadata providers, agreements to address issues associated with diversity, equity, and inclusion, as well as other value driven policies germane to academic research.
MICHELLE URBERG: There are likely many points of agreement about what information is needed for discovery and also about the desire to change how research outputs are created and who has the opportunity to create them. Community agreement and possibly a standard could help raise the bar to improve the infrastructure around creating, sharing, and retaining open research outputs, in addition to driving a more equitable, diverse and inclusive mission driven publication and sharing infrastructure.
MICHELLE URBERG: Libraries are the place where research begins and ends. But an open community driven infrastructure will be the key to scalability and long term viability of what is produced and supported. Finally, have you done the poll? Thank you very much, and we look forward to brainstorming with you in a minute.
SANDRA HIRSH: Thank you so much, Michelle, for that presentation. And I just want to thank everyone for-- I'd like to, first of all, thank all of our fantastic speakers for addressing this important topic of libraries and the importance of infrastructure. And I hope that you will join us for this discussion of the topics that the speakers spoke about and also to discuss some of the results from the poll that you've also just completed.
SANDRA HIRSH: So I want to thank you again for attending.