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Strategies Spotlight: How has Digital Education impacted how we learn, teach, & research?
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Strategies Spotlight: How has Digital Education impacted how we learn, teach, & research?
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Segment:0 .
JAKE ZARNEGAR: Diane, good to see you. I was reminded by LinkedIn the other day that I have spent 24 years in this industry. And I know that my first project was a medical education project. So a lot has changed in that time period. And we're going to learn a lot today from folks who are in it. And who are using the medical education and designing it about where medical education has come to, and where it might be going for us to use.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: So what I wanted to do, just to kick us off here before we turn it over to our panelists, and then you won't have to hear me again-- is talk about-- give you a quick orientation to the market of medical education, and especially the products, and services that support that. The digital products. So I'm going to share a quick orientation here around-- when we talk about medical education we mean everything from pre-medical school.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: So medical content that's taking place in higher Ed all the way through, of course, medical school into residency, fellowships, and into practice. And you'll see it on the left side of this screen, we have the stages that folks will go to-- go through. And then on the right side of the stage we have the mapping of our thinking around the digital product markets that serve this group.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: Some of them serve all the way through. And some you'll see are more focused on certain parts of the life cycle. So there's very-- well, I'm sure our medical students today we'll talk about the medical education piece that happens during their schooling. And of course, Brian will talk about the continuing certification, and specialty certification, and residency education that comes near the bottom of this.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: But you'll see that this data is from Outsell. You'll see the size of the digital products market here. So this is a pretty significant market of digital products. There's a lot of new products being introduced all the time. And today we're going to talk about the scope and the needs of those products surface. Diane, I'd love to turn it over to you before we go to our panelists.
DIANE HARNISH: Sure. Thanks, Jake. Everyone, hi. I am Diane Harnish. I'm one of the senior consultants with Delta Think. I'm also the education practice lead for our business. And I'm really thrilled to be here part of this to help to moderate the panel today. Really excited to have partnered with Silverchair. So thanks to Jake and Stephanie for the opportunity for Delta Think to do that.
DIANE HARNISH: Before we get into the prospectus of our panelists. We have two learners with us, students today, which from my vantage point are the people that we're building all of our products for. We also-- Jon Wisco is with us from Boston University in the curriculum director component. And then Brian with the AAOS will speak from a content provider perspective. But digital transformation, what Jake was just talking about.
DIANE HARNISH: The undertow of what's happening in education is really-- it's the digital transformation. The technology that's harnessing really the changes. It's not new. It's been around for many of us that have been in the industry. It's been happening for years from the move to digital content, and the struggles that many academic institutions had with their transition to a learning management system.
DIANE HARNISH: But those transitions and transformations are also happening front and center in the teaching and learning process with the facilitation that faculty now have tools to be able to help facilitate education, as well as then our learners. Learning is becoming more granular, and personalized, and engaging, and interactive.
DIANE HARNISH: And technology is really the undertow of all of that. So we are anxious to hear from our panelists on some of the perspectives that they have in this regard. So we're just going to go around, let them introduce themselves a little bit. And with the first introduction, if you all could also just share the feeling or your perspectives around the pace of change around education, the knowledge base that you have to learn.
DIANE HARNISH: The keeping up with the curriculum requirements that you are challenged with. If you could just take that as a kickoff. That would be great. And Gabby, why don't we start with you.
GABRIELLE LAKIS: Hello, everyone. My name is Gabby Lakis. I'm a first year medical student at Boston University. I'm involved in curriculum development at the BU on the pre-curriculum clerkship subcommittee. And I have a passion for teaching, and curriculum development, and hope to incorporate that into my career in the future. But I guess my perspective right now on the pace of education change is that as a student it can be a little overwhelming because there's so much-- so many resources out there, and what is best for me to use at this point in time.
GABRIELLE LAKIS: And I think that's going to change as I progress through my education and what stage I'm at. But yes, excited to be here today.
DIANE HARNISH: Avenelle.
AVENELLE ONAIFO: Hi, everyone. My name is Avenelle Onaifo. And I'm also a first year medical student at BUSM. I'm also on the preclerkship committee with Gabby. So we have been working together with Dr. Wisco for a really long time. I do other mentorship stuff that I'm not going to bore you with today. But my perspective is that I feel like there's a lot of space for new technology to come in since a lot of education, as I see it, is going towards personalized education in terms of the timing.
AVENELLE ONAIFO: And you're basically learning at your own pace. BUSM has really switched with our year to a more personalized flipped classroom setting. So you're able to learn at your own pace. And I think there's a lot of room for a vast number of resources to help people get to the same goal even if it's a different path to get there. So I'm really excited to share my experience with you, because I know you guys are going to be really leading that.
AVENELLE ONAIFO: So I'm excited to speak with you. Thanks for having me.
DIANE HARNISH: Dr. Wisco
JONATHAN J. WISCO: Thanks. You can call me Jon here. It's fine. I'm Jon Wisco. I am an associate professor of anatomy and neurobiology at Boston University Chobanian & Avedisian School of Medicine. I am proud to be one of the instructors of these two medical students who were gracious enough to join us today because really, they're who we're trying to help ultimately.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: I am also the co-director for the pre-clinical curriculum. And I want to mention its name, because it makes a difference, I think, in the context of our conversation. So it's called Principles Integrating Science Clinical Medicine and Equity or PISCEs. We like acronyms and we like fish. So the other thing too is I should mention that I am a co-founder of a non-profit organization.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: And called Better Learning Experiences. We help with faculty development. So I mention that because I've worked with faculty all over the country on how they are interfacing with content and their teaching. As far as the pace of change, I have been part of curriculum redesign and how we use content ever since I was a postdoc. And when I was an assistant professor at UCLA, we saw a major acceleration of change to systems based curricula.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: And the formations deployment of LMSs. And since then it has accelerated at this incredible pace. And I would say, the most recent change was post pandemic with the ability to interface in environments like this, but also just how electronic media, and content have been deployed in a customizable way. And now we can't have this conversation without talking about ChatGPT at some point because that just literally changed everything two weeks ago.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: So that's my perspective, and I'm happy to talk about all of those things.
BRIAN MOORE: Brian Moore with the American Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons. I am the director of Online Learning Assessment Examinations and Curriculum Planning. I also happen to be the business owner for the resident orthopedic core knowledge program that we've been working on for the last five years now. So I was reminded that we started this in 2018 with an idea that came out of one of our program directors to standardize education across orthopedics.
BRIAN MOORE: And has grown from there. We can talk more about the details of that later on. But in short, around the pace of change, we've really been building the tracks as we've been driving the train. So over the last four years as we've been standing up this platform working with some really great program directors, over 200, to shape this.
BRIAN MOORE: I'm happy to say that we have been working also with medical students and residents to make sure that it was really something that they could manipulate to be their platform. So really aligned. I'm happy to talk today about our perspective as a Medical Association, and how we are helping augment the learners of Medicine. Thanks.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: Great. Brian, we'll just have to make sure you don't get another responsibility on your title during this webinar. That was quite a list that you had to roll off there-- responsibility areas. Well, great. I can't, of course. I will give you something to do before the end of day.
BRIAN MOORE: Thank you.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: I think we wanted to open the floor, a bit. And the reason-- and the reason we wanted to do this in a less structured environment is, this is really a listening exercise for those of us in the publishing side about what is actually being used, and how digital products are being used. So I would love to open the floor, especially initially to Avenelle, and Gabrielle, and Jon to talk about what technology you're currently using, and how you use the digital products that you use every day.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: I don't know, who wants to pick that up first?
AVENELLE ONAIFO: I can go first, Gabby if you want. Yeah. OK. So as I was mentioning earlier a lot of students are taking a very individualized approach to supplement the curriculum that we're given by Boston University School of Medicine. So I have been using Osmosis, which is usually incorporated into our curriculum at some point. And then some Boards and Beyond videos to supplement that learning.
AVENELLE ONAIFO: A lot of us use like Anki I personally can't figure out how to use it. So I don't. But a lot of people have been able to figure it out, and it's been helpful. I feel like I'm missing something Gabby, but I can't remember. I've used-- I spoke about all the things that I've used. What about you?
GABRIELLE LAKIS: I'm basically in the same boat. I've tried Anki. I don't know if I can say I had success with it. But it's there and a lot of people use it. A lot of people love it. My personal favorite is Boards and Beyond. I think it provides a perfect amount of information and then it provides also supplementary questions at the end of every video that really help me know, did I actually understand what I was watching or was that just me not really absorbing anything.
GABRIELLE LAKIS: And I use Osmosis once it's a topic that I've probably learned about once, twice, three times. And then I can go to Osmosis. I feel like it's too dense as a first pass material for me. And then I use the materials that our professors provide for us more for a focused understanding of what my professors think is important for me to understand. Personally that's what I use. That's what I've heard a lot of my classmates use.
GABRIELLE LAKIS: People use them all in different ways. But I definitely would say that that's what I've heard a lot of people supplement their education with. A couple of other things that I've heard people use are like Pathoma. And I'm blanking on the-- Sketchy for more memory based things of bugs. But I guess that is the big picture of what it seems like a lot of medical students are using in their education today.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: That's a really good representation of the class. So I was hoping that you were going to mention Sketchy and Pathoma. So thanks for mentioning those as well. I think the most important thing that I heard our two learners mentioned is that-- each of them-- just these two are using different resources in different ways. And so if I polled 159 of my students in our medical school you will get 159 different answers for how they use content, which software titles they use.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: We also use UWorld and PeerWise, by the way, which we like a lot. Our first year medical students, which is a little unusual from other institutions are already studying for the board exams through how we've designed the curriculum, which is different than how we've done it in the past. Most medical students don't start studying for the boards until a dedicated time period during-- at the end of their M2 year.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: And that's worth mentioning because we've designed the curriculum in such a way that our students can interface with content learning as the first part of a given week-- first phase. They learn the content. But what we do in class in a fully flipped environment is to apply the content. So we expect the students to come in to that learning space having some basic knowledge, but not necessarily mastery of that content.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: But that said, students coming in from undergraduate, or master's programs, or PhD programs, they come in as learners thinking that they have to memorize everything. And when they realize that that is not humanly possible, they start using titles and going through content in a way that is most efficient for them. And as an instructor we are more than open to helping them with their pathway with the ultimate goal that we're all going to be in the learning space to be able to treat the virtual patient.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: And our curriculum goes through two major phases of systems based content learning and application, to an advanced integration phase, which these students haven't been through yet. Where they are now going to be looking at the simulated patient without actually looking at a simulator. Our goal is to get our students ready for the clerkship years, and to walk into that clinical space being confident that they understand human anatomy, physiology, genetics, health equity all of those things enough that they can be trained by the next phase of teachers.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: What we've got in the past before we updated our curriculum when students did really well on the boards, they were really good memorizers. That was fine. But they walked into the clinical space thinking they knew absolutely nothing. And our clerkship directors complained that our students knew absolutely nothing, when in fact that was not true.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: They just did not know how to apply it. So how they interface with content has to be customizable so that they can reach that point, and we are simply there to guide them through that pathway and process.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: Jon, it's a very interesting evolution. Because I do know that memorizing things, and knowing every single thing by heart has been a bedrock of medical education, and prep in the past. And you're saying that's not quite as important anymore, because a lot of that's at your fingertips now, it's how to apply it.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: Absolutely. And actually this process started 15 to 20 years ago. It just has been a slow roll since the role of the faculty member has actually changed. And that really was the barrier. We as faculty member, we're trained in our disciplinary silos. We teach the way we're trained. And so we just perpetuate bad teaching habits that perpetuate bad learning habits all along the way.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: But with the improvement of technological deployment of content, that changed slowly. But it wasn't until the pandemic when we realized we were doing everything wrong. And we realized at that point that our role as instructors, if we were to be content deliverers was a total disservice to our students who needed us to be more facilitators and verifiers of their learning.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: Because the other thing happened with the technological revolution of the-- I'd say mid 2000s or so. And that is, instead of me being the content expert, in this case anatomy, neurobiology, histology, embryology, my students could go anywhere to get that content. In fact now they can create it on their own with ChatGPT, with the internet at their fingertips. So my role has changed over my career.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: Instead of telling them what the anatomy is, helping them discover and understand why that anatomy is important. And actually I love the change. I think it's fantastic because my students are-- I mean, I'm going to brag about these students. They're operating at an M3 level, and they just finished their M1 year. And we are perfectly fine with students using third party resources, because even if it's a primary source of content.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: And then I like how Gabby focused on-- we use the instructors as here's the focus for what you as our mentors instructors want us to learn. I love that. I think it's great. I'm totally open to that. But that means that there's not a one stop solution for any student. So now you multiply 150 on average by the number of medical schools.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: The textbook doesn't exist anymore. It's not useful to us
JAKE ZARNEGAR: Brian, how does the use of educational tools and products changed when you're in practice or at least in your residency, and then beyond? What are you seeing from your board certified surgeons, and how they continue to lifelong learn?
BRIAN MOORE: Yeah. So sort of two different paths. One-- so going back to your slide that you had showed earlier. The Rock was focused on the residency education. So getting you out of school, you've completed your boards, and then getting you all the way to being board certified through those five years of residency, and taking that final part one test with our board. From a maintenance certification standpoint, we are similarly really focused on personalized learning.
BRIAN MOORE: Everything that we've got there is through our LMS. So providing smaller quick hit educational opportunities. But we're still seeing some of the trends of years ago as our older members are working through that learning style. It's a lot more self-assessment based. It's a lot more, we want to do our-- meet our minimum competencies for board recertification, but otherwise ready to move back and to just running the practice.
BRIAN MOORE: From a resident education standpoint we echo a lot of the things that Jon said. Really, what we had set out to do when we launched Rock was leverage those faculty to do what they do best. To be able to find the learners that are struggling and give them focused support. So the uniqueness of orthopedics is that there was no standardized structured comprehensive curriculum across all programs.
BRIAN MOORE: It was really up to each program to decide how they wanted to establish-- meeting the milestones of ACGME. And so by us coming in and saying, we're going to provide a knowledge base for all of orthopedics, you as a program can leverage that content in any way that you see fit. But we're going to give you the tools to identify those residents who are struggling.
BRIAN MOORE: And therefore you can spend that time really focused on them as opposed to trying to get a sense of progressing all residents through those five years. So somewhat-- as I said, mirroring what Jon said in the transition, the way that we've now flipped that to some degree-- providing the content, providing the access to the knowledge. But allowing-- more so giving those tools to allow faculty and program directors to do their jobs.
BRIAN MOORE: To be empowered to do that work.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: Right. So the expert content is again, kind of, learn on your own, or learn ahead and then work with the instructors, and faculty advisors on the areas.
BRIAN MOORE: We're seeing an interesting mix of programs who are using our baseline calendar of how we drip out that content over the course of a two year calendar, all the way to somebody who really wants to say. I want my residents working on this topic on this day. So it'll be interesting to see after a couple of years how that changes, or what the response of the residents is. Are they preferring one over the other. One approach over the other.
BRIAN MOORE: Because I think I would assume echoed in the medical school levels that residents are just overwhelmed with the amount of content that is out there. And having someone come in and say, this is what you need to know and when, and tie that back to why we are teaching you this ahead of that, and providing that structured faculty-- structured learning throughout their five years.
BRIAN MOORE: So yeah, it's really just empowering the program directors and faculty to do-- as I said not to be repetitive, but to do what they do best.
DIANE HARNISH: So Jon, and then our learners. I'd love to dive into a little bit more of what Brian was just talking about. Undertow here is very much individualized learning. At BU was that one of your strategic objectives when you were putting together some of the curriculum changes? And then for our learners, was that attracted to you when you were applying to medical schools? Because it sounds like a classroom-- traditional classroom that's really faded into a little bit of fuzzy background.
DIANE HARNISH: So Jon, thoughts on that?
JONATHAN J. WISCO: Yeah. It's definitely fuzzy, which makes it actually very, very difficult to manage. But I think it's only difficult to manage if you are thinking from-- I mean, I'm going to use a hyperbole, a Socratic paradigm. The idea of individualized education is extremely important to us because what we're trying to do is train or provide the training pathway for each of our students to develop a personal, and a professional identity formation, and a career path that helps them achieve the impact they want to have on medicine.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: So now that said, you have to learn a certain amount of anatomy. You have to learn a certain amount of phys, micro ID, but you don't have to learn everything. And so one of our highest priorities is to train lifelong learners. We're trying to train them with the skills to be able to decide what content is most important for them at the moment.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: And yes, we have benchmarks of different types of assessments along the way. But we have had actually a hard time training our faculty to realize they don't have to teach everything. It's not necessary. But they do have to provide everything. So the students can actually come back to that content at some point in some way when they realize it's important for their learning pathway.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: The problem is with individualized pathways is what Gabby needs-- I'm just going to use you as an example. But what Gabby might need in December could be what actually Avenelle wants more in March. And even though we've moved topics, the timeline is different for every student. And if you hone in on the daily routine, there's no way that each of the students are studying the same thing or emphasizing the same thing in their study on even a daily basis, let alone a monthly basis.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: So we're trying to help them navigate through that pathway. And it is a lot of fun. But it's like herding cats. And if-- what is most frustrating to me-- I'm glad that Brian brought this up. But I don't know if you meant to say things like this. But what's most frustrating to me is when I want to provide a content, and deploy it to the students in the way they need it, but I need to go to this resource, and this resource, and this resource.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: I mean, we give up on those resources a long time ago. We've been writing our own content for 15, 20 years, because and then using what's available that can be granular enough to deploy to our students. And there are some other products that I didn't mention. But certainly in the anatomy and physiology world have been incredibly helpful for that. And some that just have been-- I can't use this anymore because it's not helpful for that individualized pathway.
BRIAN MOORE: Yeah. Just building on that, Jon. I think that was one of the tenants we had. I mean, we've got such a wealth of content that we sit upon as a medical publisher. To be able to have that at fingertips, and compile that, and to be able to have some really strong relationships throughout the industry to be able to partner with publishers, and bring all of that together. That was one of the main things that we heard from both residents and program directors-- was having all of that pulled together so I don't have to go find it.
BRIAN MOORE: I don't have to go track it down. I don't have to go over to PubMed and then log in, find out where my avid login is, and be able to get to this. So yeah, agreed. Being able to be that curator of knowledge has been really empowering.
DIANE HARNISH: But also keeping it flexible, Brian, so that it can be then teed up to the needs and wants, and learning challenges, or gaps that an individualized learner has. Right.
GABRIELLE LAKIS: I think as a student it's definitely very appealing to go to a medical school that has that flexibility because especially now where we want to be engaged in other extracurriculars, such as research, or curriculum development, you want the flexibility of a curriculum to be able to learn when you want and how you can, and in the most efficient way for yourself. And I think something that was very interesting-- we have a preceptorship in the hospital.
GABRIELLE LAKIS: And during my preceptorship I was placed in the ER. And one of my preceptors, she told me she was like, I'm a firm believer that the brain has limited capacity. You cannot memorize everything but you need to know where you can go find that information when you need that information. And that was I think a very big shift. And it definitely gave affirmation towards where our curriculum is heading. You don't need to memorize every little detail because that's not what's going to help you in the long term.
GABRIELLE LAKIS: You might need that little detail in a specific moment, but in that instance, you can find that information, and know where you can find it. And so I think that that statement for my preceptor was really indicative of where medical education is heading. But also just with the amount of information that there is out there you can't take it upon yourself to just know it all, and trust that you-- I mean, you have to trust that you know what you know, but like also be aware of what you don't know.
GABRIELLE LAKIS: And so yeah.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: Gabby, do you have-- do you have, and maybe this is for all three of you. How do you assess where you are? If you're on different paths with different schedules, and potentially going through the content in a different order, how do you kind of assess-- and how does a faculty assess where you are, say in December, or in March with certain topics. What's built into your program to kind of understand that, either about yourself or about or about your students?
GABRIELLE LAKIS: So we have-- in the short term we have what are called KSA. I'm not actually sure what they stand for. Dr. Wisco you can probably--
JONATHAN J. WISCO: Knowledge self-assessment.
GABRIELLE LAKIS: OK, there we go. And so it basically means what it-- it stands for, what it means, I guess. But those help us after we've gone through a certain amount of self learning guides, we can turn to the KSA to be like, OK, did I actually learn anything, or do I have to go back to them? And then in class when we have our application sessions, again, that's another instance for you to figure out if you learned anything from the self learning guides, but then also you're learning from your classmates because something that you may have glossed over is like, oh, that wasn't important, whatever.
GABRIELLE LAKIS: Your classmate might bring up, and be like, no, this is why this is important. And then more in the long term to make sure that you don't forget big themes from other units. We have as Dr. Wisco mentioned earlier, we use PeerWise. And so we'll write questions from a previous topic, and then a month or two later we'll answer those questions. So at that point, we will have been like three months removed from let's say a palm.
GABRIELLE LAKIS: And then we're going back and we're answering student written questions of like the palm unit. And so that's another instance where we get that active recall and making sure that--
JAKE ZARNEGAR: You right questions when you're in the unit and then to be taken by you or other students later. Oh, that's interesting.
GABRIELLE LAKIS: Yes. Yes. And then more for other long term. Like testing I will use Anki. And I use what's it called? UWorld. And that really helped me I think tell, did I-- do I actually-- am I on the right track or am I not even on the track.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: Avenelle, do you want to chime in? Then I can provide the learning frameworks.
AVENELLE ONAIFO: Yeah. Yeah. Of course. I really want to emphasize what Gabby said about learning from your classmates, because I think for me what's a really important milestone to check that I am on task is the class discussions that we have in the flipped classroom setting. You're sitting with your group. We use acronyms that I know most people be like, that doesn't mean anything.
AVENELLE ONAIFO: But it's our TBL group. And so our group that we are learning with in class and application sessions, you can just decipher from the level at which they're talking about the material how well they understand it. And you're like, oh, I didn't really pick up that level of depth from the material. So I think I have to go back and review. Also what the instructors are focusing on in these application sessions it's like, there are a lot of steps to getting to like, oh, this constellation of symptoms is associated with this pathology for xyz reason.
AVENELLE ONAIFO: And the thing about not having to memorize, is if you understand parts of it you can piece it together. It's not like you have to go through the same avenue of learning to get to the same conclusion. You can understand the pathology, or you can understand the symptoms. But at the end of the day, there's like a Venn diagram of things that you need to understand as to why for example, for Cushing's you have the striae or like the central adiposity.
AVENELLE ONAIFO: But people remember different aspects of those pathologies to get to the same conclusion. So I would say a lot of learning from each other. We also use PeerWise, and UWorld, and things like that. But I think--
JAKE ZARNEGAR: Avenelle, are these conversations happening in person? Are these in-person conversations? OK.
AVENELLE ONAIFO: These are in-person application discussions. So it will be the learning at home that you're doing with the self learning guides that Gabby mentioned earlier. It's basically like the focused curriculum. The instructor send out what they think is really what we should focus on. And it's like an outline of like-- it's a collaboration of different resources that they've put together in different levels of information.
AVENELLE ONAIFO: And then you will use your own supplementary resources or learning to fully understand what they've put together. So that's how we know--
JAKE ZARNEGAR: Just because Jon-- just because Jon brought it up, I think-- is there a role for ChatGPT to simulate some of those converse-- that more conversational awareness of where you might stand with a peer? If it was fully online could you have a conversation with ChatGPT about a topic to see whether you understand it or not. Maybe we would just park that one. That's a little vague.
AVENELLE ONAIFO: That's an interesting question, though. I am--
JONATHAN J. WISCO: --I'm not afraid of ChatGPT. Go ahead.
AVENELLE ONAIFO: Yeah.
DIANE HARNISH: Jon, before you jump in, we have a question. It was actually something I was thinking about to follow up. How do our learners know that these are authoritative resources to use to begin with? Your knowledge is growing, you are incubating that knowledge. How do you know that when you're going to these different resources that they are authoritative to begin with?
GABRIELLE LAKIS: Through Osmosis and Boards and Beyond are both backed by big publishing companies. I forget exactly which ones. And so that's why I'll use those specific ones. But I will also say, like if I hear a fact once I'm not remembering that fact like as it is, just because my brain cannot do that. And so it's more of when you repetitively hear something even from several different sources-- several different sources.
GABRIELLE LAKIS: I feel like that's when you really learn it. Not just like when you hear it once. So let's say I'm using some random YouTube channel because I found that it's like really explaining this poem concept well to me. If they have a small detail in there that might be wrong-- I don't know if this is an incorrect way of thinking-- I don't think I'm really going to remember that incorrect content if that's the only time I'm hearing it.
GABRIELLE LAKIS: So that's my approach. And the two big things that I usually use which are Osmosis and Boards and Beyond they're backed by large publishing companies. So I guess I can trust that they are good sources. But I haven't done-- I've never actually analyzed, oh, is this actually factually correct, and that might be a flaw on my behalf.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: You're doing fine. Gabby-- not Gabby, but Avenelle, you want to chime in on that?
AVENELLE ONAIFO: Yeah. Sure. I think Gabby really summarized it well. I think in addition to that, we really do trust our peer-- well, I can't speak for everyone. But I trust my peers. And I trust the instructors who are first distributing this information. So if they include an Osmosis video in the self learning guide I'm assuming that it's been well vetted, and the information is something that is aligning with what we're expected to know.
AVENELLE ONAIFO: Also as Gabby said, Boards and Beyond is a pretty well known resource. A lot of med students will recommend it to subsequent classes. And so that's a trust in your peers that they-- you've gotten to med school, and you all want to help each other succeed. It's not like we're trying to hurt each other's future careers.
AVENELLE ONAIFO: So you really have to trust, I guess, the people at your institution, whether it's your peers, or the faculty, or the administration, which I feel like I've definitely been able to do it for you. I think there's a lot of community support there, and they really try to breed that idea that we are here to help you move forward. We're not trying to hinder your learning in any way or trick you.
AVENELLE ONAIFO: That's not the goal there.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: So if you encountered something new you could always vet it with a peer or a faculty to say, hey, have you heard of this resource? What do you think, right? OK.
AVENELLE ONAIFO: Yeah, definitely.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: The only time when it becomes an issue is-- actually there's two times. The first is when the students are still trying to figure out what resources they should look for. And as both of them said, as faculty, we do recommend some resources because we have put them specifically into our self learning guides. Hey, go watch this snippet of Osmosis, or go watch this YouTube video, or this snippet. Or go look at this image.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: Or go to this resource and we provided that for them, which makes the accessibility through Our Library really, really important. And so that's one way. The other way is they just organically say, hey, Dr. Wisco, I'm using this resource, do you recommend it? I say, yeah. I think it's great. You should use that.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: And then the other place where it becomes a problem is if there's add I think Gabby mentioned it. If there's a small detail somewhere that a student honed in on, and we actually either don't emphasize it, or we don't even teach it, then we are now doing the reconciliation with our curriculum with what's provided out there. That problem will never go away. But it's frustrating for the students.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: So we as faculty have to do a really good job of vetting that content. That's actually where publishers could really help us. Is we don't have the time to sit through all the videos and say, oh, OK. That's exactly what I want to hear because everyone says something a little differently. But let me back up just really quick. And then I'm sure-- I think Brian, must have something to say about this as well.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: So we use a number of theoretical frameworks to develop our curriculum. And the primary one was Make It Stick by Peter Brown. Where both of our learners brought up spaced retrieval and the idea of learning content in the first pass, and then learning it later to reinforce or to correct. We also used [INAUDIBLE] creating significant learning experiences.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: And we also threw in there, unofficially. But we are mindful of Kahneman's, two systems thinking, and Carol Dweck's, growth mindset. So those major for books, or resources are really pivotal in how we help our students understand how they learn through their pathway. But the most-- all that together, our most important role is to help students make mistakes. That's what's really important.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: We're not as interested in whether students get things correct. I mean, they do. We understand that part. But that they understand why they got things wrong or why something is correct. And so the live in person application sessions that they both described where they're working with their peers to come to a collective understanding of something as each one of them has learned a part of the content.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: Again, we don't expect mastery in first pass. But we do expect a good level of mastery after application. They need each other to understand why am I understanding this is correct. Why am I understanding this is wrong. And one of our teaching things as an instructor that we've been helping others is to-- if I simply ask a question class, traditionally, if the student answered the right answer I would say that's great, and then we move on.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: But that student doesn't know why they answered that correctly. They could have gotten it correctly for the wrong reasons. Or the flip side of that, which is very non-inclusive, in fact, that's actually non-inclusive, if you think about it. The flip side of that is if a student answers a question wrong, and we say, oh, yeah.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: Does someone have a better answer. Now, they don't know whether maybe they're answering a question wrong because of what I think, or because of what they think. And so even that process, and how we interface with content, and how it's deployed is really important for us to help facilitate learning. We want students to make mistakes and understand why, not just because of what we tell them but because of their knowledge coming from multiple sources.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: Brian, do you want-- anything you want to add?
BRIAN MOORE: Yeah, I was just struck in listening to you talk. You're teaching critical thinking skills. How do I take in multiple sources? How do I vet them? How do I know where I can turn? How can I take those perspectives, be inclusionary, and then formulate my own way of responding. And so while you're learning the anatomy you're also getting some critical life skills for being a-- wherever medicine takes you.
BRIAN MOORE:
DIANE HARNISH: What's next? Just looking at time and a couple of asked questions.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: I do want to talk about-- yeah, I do want to talk about ChatGPT. When we first started putting the seminar together, ChatGPT was on the very distant part of the radar, at least for me. And then in what one or two months that have transpired, and certainly in the last few weeks, all of a sudden it has become a big thing. And I want to mention it because it's a microcosm for I think where technology content, how we interface with it?
JONATHAN J. WISCO: How we use it as instructors? How learners use it makes a difference. In my mind ChatGPT is no different than the pencil, than the chalkboard, than the graphing calculator, and even today's internet, and handheld devices. It's a technology that can be used for good. It can also be abused. But we won't get into that. But I was speaking with a student who I noticed.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: I was just looking over their shoulder while I was sitting there. I just happened to look up and we were going through an application phase, and some discussion. And they were typing in questions into ChatGPT. And I went over to the student and asked, this is fantastic. How are you-- how are you using it? And they looked at me, and said, OK, everything's OK.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: And they said they've been putting in questions, they've been putting in bits of texts, and coming up with summaries. And I said, have you tried asking ChatGPT to create questions for you? And they said, I didn't even think about that. So now they're generating questions in that way, or generating-- and I said, when ChatGPT is able to create a diagnostic reasoning chart, or an important figure for you to understand from scratch, this game is over.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: And two hours later I ran into him and he said, guess what I was able to figure out. The bottom line is that with this technology students are now creating their own content based on what is already available on the internet. And as soon as you insert content into ChatGPT, it now becomes part of that network. So I think we could really use this for good, and help our students to fact check themselves.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: I even suggested to some students why don't you have ChatGPT see if your questions that you're writing for PeerWise are even valid? Do they even make sense? Or you input the stem in the lead in and it comes up with the answer choices, or vise versa. I think it's going to be a game changer in how we think about learning and content.
GABRIELLE LAKIS: I do have a quick question about ChatGPT though. We were talking about vetting materials. My struggle with ChatGPT is we don't know where the information that it's getting is coming from. And I know that it is incorporating so much data. It's not just one random source from Google. But it's Google is a search engine, but you at least know what your final destination is versus ChatGPT, like you don't know.
GABRIELLE LAKIS: And I don't know.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: No. I think your implied question is a vetting issue. And you're right because you actually don't know if ChatGPT is giving you the wrong information. But that actually makes it a really powerful learning tool. If ChatGPT is putting in wrong information and you realize, wait a minute, this doesn't seem right. Then you're actually learning those critical learning skills that we wanted you to learn the whole time.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: Yeah. And just I mean, to separate the technology from the content. ChatGPT is-- the technology behind it is a large language model. It has been trained on certain types of content. In fact, you can go up to GitHub, and see the sources it was trained on. The domains, at least, of the websites that it was trained on. But there are ways to create a walled garden using that same software.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: So you're still using a large language model, but you can say, I'm only going to point this at resources that we-- I've already vetted or the faculty's vetted, and then have it work from there. So that is a possibility. And I think as people think about what could a publisher's role be? It could be to create more walled garden or vetted versions of the ChatGPT.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: Just like there's vetted search engines at PubMed, where you're searching certain parts of the literature versus Google where you're searching the literature plus everything else in the world. So that could be a possible venue. Publishers will have to think about how to deploy, and train, and control is probably not the right word, but at least set it up for success for students.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: Brian, are surgeons going to be using ChatGPT?
BRIAN MOORE: I hope not. [LAUGHTER] Somewhat related, we were just playing a little game internally around whether or not you could leverage it for medical coding. And it actually gave us a wrong code. So buyer beware.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: It is free. You get what you pay for.
BRIAN MOORE: Right exactly. I was thinking about-- so yeah, it's not going to be replacing any medical coders in the near future. But it's sort of thinking about what's next. The thing that has been most impressive to me over the last five years is really the value of research, the value of market research, understanding customer base, understanding user base, really going through the process of design thinking.
BRIAN MOORE: We spent a solid six months vetting the idea of whether or not we could build a curriculum. And then after we came to the conclusion of hey, there's something here. We then worked with Delta Think to spend another six months vetting our conclusion. And where we are today is a result of that work up front. And so I think the biggest takeaway for me is not a build it and they will come mentality.
BRIAN MOORE: But rather a make sure that you understand what it is you're trying to design for. What the gap is you're trying to address. And really knowing with a certain degree of confidence that where you're headed is going to address that. I mean, even from a motivation standpoint, we have 20 odd staff, plus 200 volunteers that went into this for the last four years. And having that as the backbone.
BRIAN MOORE: Knowing that the work that we had done was vetted was what really got some folks through some tough times. It gets dark as you are 230 chapters through a 500 chapter curriculum. And really staying the course, and knowing that the work that we were doing was going to have a payoff at the end, it all ties back to the work that we did at the onset. So there was one piece of takeaway that would be it from my perspective, is really putting that upfront effort in, and making that investment, because it pays dividends down the road.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: I also want to emphasize what you said, Brian, with the baseball analogy of it's not just build it and they will come. I think publishers could really help us faculty, and administrators by understanding our curriculum design, and how we are trying to teach our students. And not just teach, but mentor them. And so that we will be able to use your content better. Gabby or Avenelle, I can't remember who said it. But one of you said, I couldn't figure out how to use this-- actually both said this-- I couldn't figure out how to use this.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: So I don't use it. I think that's really an important phrase for you to keep in mind is to don't just build it so it's out there for us. Help us use it. Help us figure out how it's useful and valuable.
DIANE HARNISH: So what does that look like, Jon? What does that conversation sound like or what does it look like?
JONATHAN J. WISCO: Well, a lot of the conversations I have with publishers-- I mean, as an anatomist I get contacted all the time. Hey, do you want to use our brand new shiny tool, and am kind of hem and haw. They're more interested in selling me a product than they are in helping me develop my framework, generally speaking. And again, not every publisher is like that, I understand. But it does come across that way.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: What would be really helpful for me is if someone would take the time to understand how I'm trying to help my students, and to help me find solutions toward that point. And that takes a longer conversation. I get it. And I realize that time is money to a certain extent. And I realize like I said earlier, we have 159 medical students with 159 different pathways.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: But ultimately, at the end of the day, if the content isn't easily usable, or is irrelevant, or I mean, I know it's probably going to be right. It's been vetted at some point. But if it can't help me with my particular way in which I want to help my students then it is not useful. And what worked for one institution is not necessarily going to work for me. So the customizability part is important.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: But that doesn't necessarily translate to granularity. It really helps for the salesperson, or the person behind the product to build that relationship and understanding of how we can work together in a learning process. And not just, hey, you sold me the product, and you're gone. I hate that. That's really, really difficult for me to work with.
DIANE HARNISH: Yeah.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: Great. Well, Diane, I think we are at our time here. Stephanie asked me to reserve just a few minutes at the end here. And Jon brought us to a great closing session. I would like to on behalf of Diane and everyone at Delta Thinking, so much here thank our panelists for such an interesting discussion. I was jotting down notes myself during that conversation. So thank you to each of you for spending your time and sharing your wisdom with us in our group today.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: Thank you very much. And Stephanie, I'm going to turn it over to you. STEPHANIE LOVEGROVE
HANSEN: Fantastic.
HANSEN: Thank you. And thank you to all the panelists. I'm just going to jump on really quickly. And two things to share with everyone who's attending today. One is that this is the second event in our three part series. The final virtual event is going to take place on June 21 with our colleagues from the American Institute of Physics publishing and Data Conversion Laboratory, and we'll be looking at a case study on AIPP's content conversion and migration, and what other publishers can learn from that experience.
HANSEN: And finally, as I mentioned at the start of the event, we are excited to be hosting the return of the in-person platform strategies event this year in Washington, DC, on September 27. And registration for that event opens right now. I'm going to drop a link in the chat. Attendees can also use this discount code to get $25 off registration. And I will be sending all of this via email as well.
HANSEN: So you don't have to memorize it. But we are very excited. We hope to get to see you in DC. We hope to see you for our next virtual event. And we thank you so much for being here today. And thank you so much to all the panelists. We really appreciate it. Great to see everyone. Thank you.
HANSEN:
Segment:0 .
JAKE ZARNEGAR: Diane, good to see you. I was reminded by LinkedIn the other day that I have spent 24 years in this industry. And I know that my first project was a medical education project. So a lot has changed in that time period. And we're going to learn a lot today from folks who are in it. And who are using the medical education and designing it about where medical education has come to, and where it might be going for us to use.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: So what I wanted to do, just to kick us off here before we turn it over to our panelists, and then you won't have to hear me again-- is talk about-- give you a quick orientation to the market of medical education, and especially the products, and services that support that. The digital products. So I'm going to share a quick orientation here around-- when we talk about medical education we mean everything from pre-medical school.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: So medical content that's taking place in higher Ed all the way through, of course, medical school into residency, fellowships, and into practice. And you'll see it on the left side of this screen, we have the stages that folks will go to-- go through. And then on the right side of the stage we have the mapping of our thinking around the digital product markets that serve this group.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: Some of them serve all the way through. And some you'll see are more focused on certain parts of the life cycle. So there's very-- well, I'm sure our medical students today we'll talk about the medical education piece that happens during their schooling. And of course, Brian will talk about the continuing certification, and specialty certification, and residency education that comes near the bottom of this.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: But you'll see that this data is from Outsell. You'll see the size of the digital products market here. So this is a pretty significant market of digital products. There's a lot of new products being introduced all the time. And today we're going to talk about the scope and the needs of those products surface. Diane, I'd love to turn it over to you before we go to our panelists.
DIANE HARNISH: Sure. Thanks, Jake. Everyone, hi. I am Diane Harnish. I'm one of the senior consultants with Delta Think. I'm also the education practice lead for our business. And I'm really thrilled to be here part of this to help to moderate the panel today. Really excited to have partnered with Silverchair. So thanks to Jake and Stephanie for the opportunity for Delta Think to do that.
DIANE HARNISH: Before we get into the prospectus of our panelists. We have two learners with us, students today, which from my vantage point are the people that we're building all of our products for. We also-- Jon Wisco is with us from Boston University in the curriculum director component. And then Brian with the AAOS will speak from a content provider perspective. But digital transformation, what Jake was just talking about.
DIANE HARNISH: The undertow of what's happening in education is really-- it's the digital transformation. The technology that's harnessing really the changes. It's not new. It's been around for many of us that have been in the industry. It's been happening for years from the move to digital content, and the struggles that many academic institutions had with their transition to a learning management system.
DIANE HARNISH: But those transitions and transformations are also happening front and center in the teaching and learning process with the facilitation that faculty now have tools to be able to help facilitate education, as well as then our learners. Learning is becoming more granular, and personalized, and engaging, and interactive.
DIANE HARNISH: And technology is really the undertow of all of that. So we are anxious to hear from our panelists on some of the perspectives that they have in this regard. So we're just going to go around, let them introduce themselves a little bit. And with the first introduction, if you all could also just share the feeling or your perspectives around the pace of change around education, the knowledge base that you have to learn.
DIANE HARNISH: The keeping up with the curriculum requirements that you are challenged with. If you could just take that as a kickoff. That would be great. And Gabby, why don't we start with you.
GABRIELLE LAKIS: Hello, everyone. My name is Gabby Lakis. I'm a first year medical student at Boston University. I'm involved in curriculum development at the BU on the pre-curriculum clerkship subcommittee. And I have a passion for teaching, and curriculum development, and hope to incorporate that into my career in the future. But I guess my perspective right now on the pace of education change is that as a student it can be a little overwhelming because there's so much-- so many resources out there, and what is best for me to use at this point in time.
GABRIELLE LAKIS: And I think that's going to change as I progress through my education and what stage I'm at. But yes, excited to be here today.
DIANE HARNISH: Avenelle.
AVENELLE ONAIFO: Hi, everyone. My name is Avenelle Onaifo. And I'm also a first year medical student at BUSM. I'm also on the preclerkship committee with Gabby. So we have been working together with Dr. Wisco for a really long time. I do other mentorship stuff that I'm not going to bore you with today. But my perspective is that I feel like there's a lot of space for new technology to come in since a lot of education, as I see it, is going towards personalized education in terms of the timing.
AVENELLE ONAIFO: And you're basically learning at your own pace. BUSM has really switched with our year to a more personalized flipped classroom setting. So you're able to learn at your own pace. And I think there's a lot of room for a vast number of resources to help people get to the same goal even if it's a different path to get there. So I'm really excited to share my experience with you, because I know you guys are going to be really leading that.
AVENELLE ONAIFO: So I'm excited to speak with you. Thanks for having me.
DIANE HARNISH: Dr. Wisco
JONATHAN J. WISCO: Thanks. You can call me Jon here. It's fine. I'm Jon Wisco. I am an associate professor of anatomy and neurobiology at Boston University Chobanian & Avedisian School of Medicine. I am proud to be one of the instructors of these two medical students who were gracious enough to join us today because really, they're who we're trying to help ultimately.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: I am also the co-director for the pre-clinical curriculum. And I want to mention its name, because it makes a difference, I think, in the context of our conversation. So it's called Principles Integrating Science Clinical Medicine and Equity or PISCEs. We like acronyms and we like fish. So the other thing too is I should mention that I am a co-founder of a non-profit organization.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: And called Better Learning Experiences. We help with faculty development. So I mention that because I've worked with faculty all over the country on how they are interfacing with content and their teaching. As far as the pace of change, I have been part of curriculum redesign and how we use content ever since I was a postdoc. And when I was an assistant professor at UCLA, we saw a major acceleration of change to systems based curricula.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: And the formations deployment of LMSs. And since then it has accelerated at this incredible pace. And I would say, the most recent change was post pandemic with the ability to interface in environments like this, but also just how electronic media, and content have been deployed in a customizable way. And now we can't have this conversation without talking about ChatGPT at some point because that just literally changed everything two weeks ago.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: So that's my perspective, and I'm happy to talk about all of those things.
BRIAN MOORE: Brian Moore with the American Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons. I am the director of Online Learning Assessment Examinations and Curriculum Planning. I also happen to be the business owner for the resident orthopedic core knowledge program that we've been working on for the last five years now. So I was reminded that we started this in 2018 with an idea that came out of one of our program directors to standardize education across orthopedics.
BRIAN MOORE: And has grown from there. We can talk more about the details of that later on. But in short, around the pace of change, we've really been building the tracks as we've been driving the train. So over the last four years as we've been standing up this platform working with some really great program directors, over 200, to shape this.
BRIAN MOORE: I'm happy to say that we have been working also with medical students and residents to make sure that it was really something that they could manipulate to be their platform. So really aligned. I'm happy to talk today about our perspective as a Medical Association, and how we are helping augment the learners of Medicine. Thanks.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: Great. Brian, we'll just have to make sure you don't get another responsibility on your title during this webinar. That was quite a list that you had to roll off there-- responsibility areas. Well, great. I can't, of course. I will give you something to do before the end of day.
BRIAN MOORE: Thank you.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: I think we wanted to open the floor, a bit. And the reason-- and the reason we wanted to do this in a less structured environment is, this is really a listening exercise for those of us in the publishing side about what is actually being used, and how digital products are being used. So I would love to open the floor, especially initially to Avenelle, and Gabrielle, and Jon to talk about what technology you're currently using, and how you use the digital products that you use every day.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: I don't know, who wants to pick that up first?
AVENELLE ONAIFO: I can go first, Gabby if you want. Yeah. OK. So as I was mentioning earlier a lot of students are taking a very individualized approach to supplement the curriculum that we're given by Boston University School of Medicine. So I have been using Osmosis, which is usually incorporated into our curriculum at some point. And then some Boards and Beyond videos to supplement that learning.
AVENELLE ONAIFO: A lot of us use like Anki I personally can't figure out how to use it. So I don't. But a lot of people have been able to figure it out, and it's been helpful. I feel like I'm missing something Gabby, but I can't remember. I've used-- I spoke about all the things that I've used. What about you?
GABRIELLE LAKIS: I'm basically in the same boat. I've tried Anki. I don't know if I can say I had success with it. But it's there and a lot of people use it. A lot of people love it. My personal favorite is Boards and Beyond. I think it provides a perfect amount of information and then it provides also supplementary questions at the end of every video that really help me know, did I actually understand what I was watching or was that just me not really absorbing anything.
GABRIELLE LAKIS: And I use Osmosis once it's a topic that I've probably learned about once, twice, three times. And then I can go to Osmosis. I feel like it's too dense as a first pass material for me. And then I use the materials that our professors provide for us more for a focused understanding of what my professors think is important for me to understand. Personally that's what I use. That's what I've heard a lot of my classmates use.
GABRIELLE LAKIS: People use them all in different ways. But I definitely would say that that's what I've heard a lot of people supplement their education with. A couple of other things that I've heard people use are like Pathoma. And I'm blanking on the-- Sketchy for more memory based things of bugs. But I guess that is the big picture of what it seems like a lot of medical students are using in their education today.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: That's a really good representation of the class. So I was hoping that you were going to mention Sketchy and Pathoma. So thanks for mentioning those as well. I think the most important thing that I heard our two learners mentioned is that-- each of them-- just these two are using different resources in different ways. And so if I polled 159 of my students in our medical school you will get 159 different answers for how they use content, which software titles they use.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: We also use UWorld and PeerWise, by the way, which we like a lot. Our first year medical students, which is a little unusual from other institutions are already studying for the board exams through how we've designed the curriculum, which is different than how we've done it in the past. Most medical students don't start studying for the boards until a dedicated time period during-- at the end of their M2 year.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: And that's worth mentioning because we've designed the curriculum in such a way that our students can interface with content learning as the first part of a given week-- first phase. They learn the content. But what we do in class in a fully flipped environment is to apply the content. So we expect the students to come in to that learning space having some basic knowledge, but not necessarily mastery of that content.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: But that said, students coming in from undergraduate, or master's programs, or PhD programs, they come in as learners thinking that they have to memorize everything. And when they realize that that is not humanly possible, they start using titles and going through content in a way that is most efficient for them. And as an instructor we are more than open to helping them with their pathway with the ultimate goal that we're all going to be in the learning space to be able to treat the virtual patient.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: And our curriculum goes through two major phases of systems based content learning and application, to an advanced integration phase, which these students haven't been through yet. Where they are now going to be looking at the simulated patient without actually looking at a simulator. Our goal is to get our students ready for the clerkship years, and to walk into that clinical space being confident that they understand human anatomy, physiology, genetics, health equity all of those things enough that they can be trained by the next phase of teachers.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: What we've got in the past before we updated our curriculum when students did really well on the boards, they were really good memorizers. That was fine. But they walked into the clinical space thinking they knew absolutely nothing. And our clerkship directors complained that our students knew absolutely nothing, when in fact that was not true.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: They just did not know how to apply it. So how they interface with content has to be customizable so that they can reach that point, and we are simply there to guide them through that pathway and process.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: Jon, it's a very interesting evolution. Because I do know that memorizing things, and knowing every single thing by heart has been a bedrock of medical education, and prep in the past. And you're saying that's not quite as important anymore, because a lot of that's at your fingertips now, it's how to apply it.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: Absolutely. And actually this process started 15 to 20 years ago. It just has been a slow roll since the role of the faculty member has actually changed. And that really was the barrier. We as faculty member, we're trained in our disciplinary silos. We teach the way we're trained. And so we just perpetuate bad teaching habits that perpetuate bad learning habits all along the way.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: But with the improvement of technological deployment of content, that changed slowly. But it wasn't until the pandemic when we realized we were doing everything wrong. And we realized at that point that our role as instructors, if we were to be content deliverers was a total disservice to our students who needed us to be more facilitators and verifiers of their learning.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: Because the other thing happened with the technological revolution of the-- I'd say mid 2000s or so. And that is, instead of me being the content expert, in this case anatomy, neurobiology, histology, embryology, my students could go anywhere to get that content. In fact now they can create it on their own with ChatGPT, with the internet at their fingertips. So my role has changed over my career.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: Instead of telling them what the anatomy is, helping them discover and understand why that anatomy is important. And actually I love the change. I think it's fantastic because my students are-- I mean, I'm going to brag about these students. They're operating at an M3 level, and they just finished their M1 year. And we are perfectly fine with students using third party resources, because even if it's a primary source of content.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: And then I like how Gabby focused on-- we use the instructors as here's the focus for what you as our mentors instructors want us to learn. I love that. I think it's great. I'm totally open to that. But that means that there's not a one stop solution for any student. So now you multiply 150 on average by the number of medical schools.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: The textbook doesn't exist anymore. It's not useful to us
JAKE ZARNEGAR: Brian, how does the use of educational tools and products changed when you're in practice or at least in your residency, and then beyond? What are you seeing from your board certified surgeons, and how they continue to lifelong learn?
BRIAN MOORE: Yeah. So sort of two different paths. One-- so going back to your slide that you had showed earlier. The Rock was focused on the residency education. So getting you out of school, you've completed your boards, and then getting you all the way to being board certified through those five years of residency, and taking that final part one test with our board. From a maintenance certification standpoint, we are similarly really focused on personalized learning.
BRIAN MOORE: Everything that we've got there is through our LMS. So providing smaller quick hit educational opportunities. But we're still seeing some of the trends of years ago as our older members are working through that learning style. It's a lot more self-assessment based. It's a lot more, we want to do our-- meet our minimum competencies for board recertification, but otherwise ready to move back and to just running the practice.
BRIAN MOORE: From a resident education standpoint we echo a lot of the things that Jon said. Really, what we had set out to do when we launched Rock was leverage those faculty to do what they do best. To be able to find the learners that are struggling and give them focused support. So the uniqueness of orthopedics is that there was no standardized structured comprehensive curriculum across all programs.
BRIAN MOORE: It was really up to each program to decide how they wanted to establish-- meeting the milestones of ACGME. And so by us coming in and saying, we're going to provide a knowledge base for all of orthopedics, you as a program can leverage that content in any way that you see fit. But we're going to give you the tools to identify those residents who are struggling.
BRIAN MOORE: And therefore you can spend that time really focused on them as opposed to trying to get a sense of progressing all residents through those five years. So somewhat-- as I said, mirroring what Jon said in the transition, the way that we've now flipped that to some degree-- providing the content, providing the access to the knowledge. But allowing-- more so giving those tools to allow faculty and program directors to do their jobs.
BRIAN MOORE: To be empowered to do that work.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: Right. So the expert content is again, kind of, learn on your own, or learn ahead and then work with the instructors, and faculty advisors on the areas.
BRIAN MOORE: We're seeing an interesting mix of programs who are using our baseline calendar of how we drip out that content over the course of a two year calendar, all the way to somebody who really wants to say. I want my residents working on this topic on this day. So it'll be interesting to see after a couple of years how that changes, or what the response of the residents is. Are they preferring one over the other. One approach over the other.
BRIAN MOORE: Because I think I would assume echoed in the medical school levels that residents are just overwhelmed with the amount of content that is out there. And having someone come in and say, this is what you need to know and when, and tie that back to why we are teaching you this ahead of that, and providing that structured faculty-- structured learning throughout their five years.
BRIAN MOORE: So yeah, it's really just empowering the program directors and faculty to do-- as I said not to be repetitive, but to do what they do best.
DIANE HARNISH: So Jon, and then our learners. I'd love to dive into a little bit more of what Brian was just talking about. Undertow here is very much individualized learning. At BU was that one of your strategic objectives when you were putting together some of the curriculum changes? And then for our learners, was that attracted to you when you were applying to medical schools? Because it sounds like a classroom-- traditional classroom that's really faded into a little bit of fuzzy background.
DIANE HARNISH: So Jon, thoughts on that?
JONATHAN J. WISCO: Yeah. It's definitely fuzzy, which makes it actually very, very difficult to manage. But I think it's only difficult to manage if you are thinking from-- I mean, I'm going to use a hyperbole, a Socratic paradigm. The idea of individualized education is extremely important to us because what we're trying to do is train or provide the training pathway for each of our students to develop a personal, and a professional identity formation, and a career path that helps them achieve the impact they want to have on medicine.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: So now that said, you have to learn a certain amount of anatomy. You have to learn a certain amount of phys, micro ID, but you don't have to learn everything. And so one of our highest priorities is to train lifelong learners. We're trying to train them with the skills to be able to decide what content is most important for them at the moment.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: And yes, we have benchmarks of different types of assessments along the way. But we have had actually a hard time training our faculty to realize they don't have to teach everything. It's not necessary. But they do have to provide everything. So the students can actually come back to that content at some point in some way when they realize it's important for their learning pathway.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: The problem is with individualized pathways is what Gabby needs-- I'm just going to use you as an example. But what Gabby might need in December could be what actually Avenelle wants more in March. And even though we've moved topics, the timeline is different for every student. And if you hone in on the daily routine, there's no way that each of the students are studying the same thing or emphasizing the same thing in their study on even a daily basis, let alone a monthly basis.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: So we're trying to help them navigate through that pathway. And it is a lot of fun. But it's like herding cats. And if-- what is most frustrating to me-- I'm glad that Brian brought this up. But I don't know if you meant to say things like this. But what's most frustrating to me is when I want to provide a content, and deploy it to the students in the way they need it, but I need to go to this resource, and this resource, and this resource.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: I mean, we give up on those resources a long time ago. We've been writing our own content for 15, 20 years, because and then using what's available that can be granular enough to deploy to our students. And there are some other products that I didn't mention. But certainly in the anatomy and physiology world have been incredibly helpful for that. And some that just have been-- I can't use this anymore because it's not helpful for that individualized pathway.
BRIAN MOORE: Yeah. Just building on that, Jon. I think that was one of the tenants we had. I mean, we've got such a wealth of content that we sit upon as a medical publisher. To be able to have that at fingertips, and compile that, and to be able to have some really strong relationships throughout the industry to be able to partner with publishers, and bring all of that together. That was one of the main things that we heard from both residents and program directors-- was having all of that pulled together so I don't have to go find it.
BRIAN MOORE: I don't have to go track it down. I don't have to go over to PubMed and then log in, find out where my avid login is, and be able to get to this. So yeah, agreed. Being able to be that curator of knowledge has been really empowering.
DIANE HARNISH: But also keeping it flexible, Brian, so that it can be then teed up to the needs and wants, and learning challenges, or gaps that an individualized learner has. Right.
GABRIELLE LAKIS: I think as a student it's definitely very appealing to go to a medical school that has that flexibility because especially now where we want to be engaged in other extracurriculars, such as research, or curriculum development, you want the flexibility of a curriculum to be able to learn when you want and how you can, and in the most efficient way for yourself. And I think something that was very interesting-- we have a preceptorship in the hospital.
GABRIELLE LAKIS: And during my preceptorship I was placed in the ER. And one of my preceptors, she told me she was like, I'm a firm believer that the brain has limited capacity. You cannot memorize everything but you need to know where you can go find that information when you need that information. And that was I think a very big shift. And it definitely gave affirmation towards where our curriculum is heading. You don't need to memorize every little detail because that's not what's going to help you in the long term.
GABRIELLE LAKIS: You might need that little detail in a specific moment, but in that instance, you can find that information, and know where you can find it. And so I think that that statement for my preceptor was really indicative of where medical education is heading. But also just with the amount of information that there is out there you can't take it upon yourself to just know it all, and trust that you-- I mean, you have to trust that you know what you know, but like also be aware of what you don't know.
GABRIELLE LAKIS: And so yeah.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: Gabby, do you have-- do you have, and maybe this is for all three of you. How do you assess where you are? If you're on different paths with different schedules, and potentially going through the content in a different order, how do you kind of assess-- and how does a faculty assess where you are, say in December, or in March with certain topics. What's built into your program to kind of understand that, either about yourself or about or about your students?
GABRIELLE LAKIS: So we have-- in the short term we have what are called KSA. I'm not actually sure what they stand for. Dr. Wisco you can probably--
JONATHAN J. WISCO: Knowledge self-assessment.
GABRIELLE LAKIS: OK, there we go. And so it basically means what it-- it stands for, what it means, I guess. But those help us after we've gone through a certain amount of self learning guides, we can turn to the KSA to be like, OK, did I actually learn anything, or do I have to go back to them? And then in class when we have our application sessions, again, that's another instance for you to figure out if you learned anything from the self learning guides, but then also you're learning from your classmates because something that you may have glossed over is like, oh, that wasn't important, whatever.
GABRIELLE LAKIS: Your classmate might bring up, and be like, no, this is why this is important. And then more in the long term to make sure that you don't forget big themes from other units. We have as Dr. Wisco mentioned earlier, we use PeerWise. And so we'll write questions from a previous topic, and then a month or two later we'll answer those questions. So at that point, we will have been like three months removed from let's say a palm.
GABRIELLE LAKIS: And then we're going back and we're answering student written questions of like the palm unit. And so that's another instance where we get that active recall and making sure that--
JAKE ZARNEGAR: You right questions when you're in the unit and then to be taken by you or other students later. Oh, that's interesting.
GABRIELLE LAKIS: Yes. Yes. And then more for other long term. Like testing I will use Anki. And I use what's it called? UWorld. And that really helped me I think tell, did I-- do I actually-- am I on the right track or am I not even on the track.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: Avenelle, do you want to chime in? Then I can provide the learning frameworks.
AVENELLE ONAIFO: Yeah. Yeah. Of course. I really want to emphasize what Gabby said about learning from your classmates, because I think for me what's a really important milestone to check that I am on task is the class discussions that we have in the flipped classroom setting. You're sitting with your group. We use acronyms that I know most people be like, that doesn't mean anything.
AVENELLE ONAIFO: But it's our TBL group. And so our group that we are learning with in class and application sessions, you can just decipher from the level at which they're talking about the material how well they understand it. And you're like, oh, I didn't really pick up that level of depth from the material. So I think I have to go back and review. Also what the instructors are focusing on in these application sessions it's like, there are a lot of steps to getting to like, oh, this constellation of symptoms is associated with this pathology for xyz reason.
AVENELLE ONAIFO: And the thing about not having to memorize, is if you understand parts of it you can piece it together. It's not like you have to go through the same avenue of learning to get to the same conclusion. You can understand the pathology, or you can understand the symptoms. But at the end of the day, there's like a Venn diagram of things that you need to understand as to why for example, for Cushing's you have the striae or like the central adiposity.
AVENELLE ONAIFO: But people remember different aspects of those pathologies to get to the same conclusion. So I would say a lot of learning from each other. We also use PeerWise, and UWorld, and things like that. But I think--
JAKE ZARNEGAR: Avenelle, are these conversations happening in person? Are these in-person conversations? OK.
AVENELLE ONAIFO: These are in-person application discussions. So it will be the learning at home that you're doing with the self learning guides that Gabby mentioned earlier. It's basically like the focused curriculum. The instructor send out what they think is really what we should focus on. And it's like an outline of like-- it's a collaboration of different resources that they've put together in different levels of information.
AVENELLE ONAIFO: And then you will use your own supplementary resources or learning to fully understand what they've put together. So that's how we know--
JAKE ZARNEGAR: Just because Jon-- just because Jon brought it up, I think-- is there a role for ChatGPT to simulate some of those converse-- that more conversational awareness of where you might stand with a peer? If it was fully online could you have a conversation with ChatGPT about a topic to see whether you understand it or not. Maybe we would just park that one. That's a little vague.
AVENELLE ONAIFO: That's an interesting question, though. I am--
JONATHAN J. WISCO: --I'm not afraid of ChatGPT. Go ahead.
AVENELLE ONAIFO: Yeah.
DIANE HARNISH: Jon, before you jump in, we have a question. It was actually something I was thinking about to follow up. How do our learners know that these are authoritative resources to use to begin with? Your knowledge is growing, you are incubating that knowledge. How do you know that when you're going to these different resources that they are authoritative to begin with?
GABRIELLE LAKIS: Through Osmosis and Boards and Beyond are both backed by big publishing companies. I forget exactly which ones. And so that's why I'll use those specific ones. But I will also say, like if I hear a fact once I'm not remembering that fact like as it is, just because my brain cannot do that. And so it's more of when you repetitively hear something even from several different sources-- several different sources.
GABRIELLE LAKIS: I feel like that's when you really learn it. Not just like when you hear it once. So let's say I'm using some random YouTube channel because I found that it's like really explaining this poem concept well to me. If they have a small detail in there that might be wrong-- I don't know if this is an incorrect way of thinking-- I don't think I'm really going to remember that incorrect content if that's the only time I'm hearing it.
GABRIELLE LAKIS: So that's my approach. And the two big things that I usually use which are Osmosis and Boards and Beyond they're backed by large publishing companies. So I guess I can trust that they are good sources. But I haven't done-- I've never actually analyzed, oh, is this actually factually correct, and that might be a flaw on my behalf.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: You're doing fine. Gabby-- not Gabby, but Avenelle, you want to chime in on that?
AVENELLE ONAIFO: Yeah. Sure. I think Gabby really summarized it well. I think in addition to that, we really do trust our peer-- well, I can't speak for everyone. But I trust my peers. And I trust the instructors who are first distributing this information. So if they include an Osmosis video in the self learning guide I'm assuming that it's been well vetted, and the information is something that is aligning with what we're expected to know.
AVENELLE ONAIFO: Also as Gabby said, Boards and Beyond is a pretty well known resource. A lot of med students will recommend it to subsequent classes. And so that's a trust in your peers that they-- you've gotten to med school, and you all want to help each other succeed. It's not like we're trying to hurt each other's future careers.
AVENELLE ONAIFO: So you really have to trust, I guess, the people at your institution, whether it's your peers, or the faculty, or the administration, which I feel like I've definitely been able to do it for you. I think there's a lot of community support there, and they really try to breed that idea that we are here to help you move forward. We're not trying to hinder your learning in any way or trick you.
AVENELLE ONAIFO: That's not the goal there.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: So if you encountered something new you could always vet it with a peer or a faculty to say, hey, have you heard of this resource? What do you think, right? OK.
AVENELLE ONAIFO: Yeah, definitely.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: The only time when it becomes an issue is-- actually there's two times. The first is when the students are still trying to figure out what resources they should look for. And as both of them said, as faculty, we do recommend some resources because we have put them specifically into our self learning guides. Hey, go watch this snippet of Osmosis, or go watch this YouTube video, or this snippet. Or go look at this image.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: Or go to this resource and we provided that for them, which makes the accessibility through Our Library really, really important. And so that's one way. The other way is they just organically say, hey, Dr. Wisco, I'm using this resource, do you recommend it? I say, yeah. I think it's great. You should use that.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: And then the other place where it becomes a problem is if there's add I think Gabby mentioned it. If there's a small detail somewhere that a student honed in on, and we actually either don't emphasize it, or we don't even teach it, then we are now doing the reconciliation with our curriculum with what's provided out there. That problem will never go away. But it's frustrating for the students.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: So we as faculty have to do a really good job of vetting that content. That's actually where publishers could really help us. Is we don't have the time to sit through all the videos and say, oh, OK. That's exactly what I want to hear because everyone says something a little differently. But let me back up just really quick. And then I'm sure-- I think Brian, must have something to say about this as well.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: So we use a number of theoretical frameworks to develop our curriculum. And the primary one was Make It Stick by Peter Brown. Where both of our learners brought up spaced retrieval and the idea of learning content in the first pass, and then learning it later to reinforce or to correct. We also used [INAUDIBLE] creating significant learning experiences.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: And we also threw in there, unofficially. But we are mindful of Kahneman's, two systems thinking, and Carol Dweck's, growth mindset. So those major for books, or resources are really pivotal in how we help our students understand how they learn through their pathway. But the most-- all that together, our most important role is to help students make mistakes. That's what's really important.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: We're not as interested in whether students get things correct. I mean, they do. We understand that part. But that they understand why they got things wrong or why something is correct. And so the live in person application sessions that they both described where they're working with their peers to come to a collective understanding of something as each one of them has learned a part of the content.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: Again, we don't expect mastery in first pass. But we do expect a good level of mastery after application. They need each other to understand why am I understanding this is correct. Why am I understanding this is wrong. And one of our teaching things as an instructor that we've been helping others is to-- if I simply ask a question class, traditionally, if the student answered the right answer I would say that's great, and then we move on.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: But that student doesn't know why they answered that correctly. They could have gotten it correctly for the wrong reasons. Or the flip side of that, which is very non-inclusive, in fact, that's actually non-inclusive, if you think about it. The flip side of that is if a student answers a question wrong, and we say, oh, yeah.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: Does someone have a better answer. Now, they don't know whether maybe they're answering a question wrong because of what I think, or because of what they think. And so even that process, and how we interface with content, and how it's deployed is really important for us to help facilitate learning. We want students to make mistakes and understand why, not just because of what we tell them but because of their knowledge coming from multiple sources.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: Brian, do you want-- anything you want to add?
BRIAN MOORE: Yeah, I was just struck in listening to you talk. You're teaching critical thinking skills. How do I take in multiple sources? How do I vet them? How do I know where I can turn? How can I take those perspectives, be inclusionary, and then formulate my own way of responding. And so while you're learning the anatomy you're also getting some critical life skills for being a-- wherever medicine takes you.
BRIAN MOORE:
DIANE HARNISH: What's next? Just looking at time and a couple of asked questions.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: I do want to talk about-- yeah, I do want to talk about ChatGPT. When we first started putting the seminar together, ChatGPT was on the very distant part of the radar, at least for me. And then in what one or two months that have transpired, and certainly in the last few weeks, all of a sudden it has become a big thing. And I want to mention it because it's a microcosm for I think where technology content, how we interface with it?
JONATHAN J. WISCO: How we use it as instructors? How learners use it makes a difference. In my mind ChatGPT is no different than the pencil, than the chalkboard, than the graphing calculator, and even today's internet, and handheld devices. It's a technology that can be used for good. It can also be abused. But we won't get into that. But I was speaking with a student who I noticed.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: I was just looking over their shoulder while I was sitting there. I just happened to look up and we were going through an application phase, and some discussion. And they were typing in questions into ChatGPT. And I went over to the student and asked, this is fantastic. How are you-- how are you using it? And they looked at me, and said, OK, everything's OK.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: And they said they've been putting in questions, they've been putting in bits of texts, and coming up with summaries. And I said, have you tried asking ChatGPT to create questions for you? And they said, I didn't even think about that. So now they're generating questions in that way, or generating-- and I said, when ChatGPT is able to create a diagnostic reasoning chart, or an important figure for you to understand from scratch, this game is over.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: And two hours later I ran into him and he said, guess what I was able to figure out. The bottom line is that with this technology students are now creating their own content based on what is already available on the internet. And as soon as you insert content into ChatGPT, it now becomes part of that network. So I think we could really use this for good, and help our students to fact check themselves.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: I even suggested to some students why don't you have ChatGPT see if your questions that you're writing for PeerWise are even valid? Do they even make sense? Or you input the stem in the lead in and it comes up with the answer choices, or vise versa. I think it's going to be a game changer in how we think about learning and content.
GABRIELLE LAKIS: I do have a quick question about ChatGPT though. We were talking about vetting materials. My struggle with ChatGPT is we don't know where the information that it's getting is coming from. And I know that it is incorporating so much data. It's not just one random source from Google. But it's Google is a search engine, but you at least know what your final destination is versus ChatGPT, like you don't know.
GABRIELLE LAKIS: And I don't know.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: No. I think your implied question is a vetting issue. And you're right because you actually don't know if ChatGPT is giving you the wrong information. But that actually makes it a really powerful learning tool. If ChatGPT is putting in wrong information and you realize, wait a minute, this doesn't seem right. Then you're actually learning those critical learning skills that we wanted you to learn the whole time.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: Yeah. And just I mean, to separate the technology from the content. ChatGPT is-- the technology behind it is a large language model. It has been trained on certain types of content. In fact, you can go up to GitHub, and see the sources it was trained on. The domains, at least, of the websites that it was trained on. But there are ways to create a walled garden using that same software.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: So you're still using a large language model, but you can say, I'm only going to point this at resources that we-- I've already vetted or the faculty's vetted, and then have it work from there. So that is a possibility. And I think as people think about what could a publisher's role be? It could be to create more walled garden or vetted versions of the ChatGPT.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: Just like there's vetted search engines at PubMed, where you're searching certain parts of the literature versus Google where you're searching the literature plus everything else in the world. So that could be a possible venue. Publishers will have to think about how to deploy, and train, and control is probably not the right word, but at least set it up for success for students.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: Brian, are surgeons going to be using ChatGPT?
BRIAN MOORE: I hope not. [LAUGHTER] Somewhat related, we were just playing a little game internally around whether or not you could leverage it for medical coding. And it actually gave us a wrong code. So buyer beware.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: It is free. You get what you pay for.
BRIAN MOORE: Right exactly. I was thinking about-- so yeah, it's not going to be replacing any medical coders in the near future. But it's sort of thinking about what's next. The thing that has been most impressive to me over the last five years is really the value of research, the value of market research, understanding customer base, understanding user base, really going through the process of design thinking.
BRIAN MOORE: We spent a solid six months vetting the idea of whether or not we could build a curriculum. And then after we came to the conclusion of hey, there's something here. We then worked with Delta Think to spend another six months vetting our conclusion. And where we are today is a result of that work up front. And so I think the biggest takeaway for me is not a build it and they will come mentality.
BRIAN MOORE: But rather a make sure that you understand what it is you're trying to design for. What the gap is you're trying to address. And really knowing with a certain degree of confidence that where you're headed is going to address that. I mean, even from a motivation standpoint, we have 20 odd staff, plus 200 volunteers that went into this for the last four years. And having that as the backbone.
BRIAN MOORE: Knowing that the work that we had done was vetted was what really got some folks through some tough times. It gets dark as you are 230 chapters through a 500 chapter curriculum. And really staying the course, and knowing that the work that we were doing was going to have a payoff at the end, it all ties back to the work that we did at the onset. So there was one piece of takeaway that would be it from my perspective, is really putting that upfront effort in, and making that investment, because it pays dividends down the road.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: I also want to emphasize what you said, Brian, with the baseball analogy of it's not just build it and they will come. I think publishers could really help us faculty, and administrators by understanding our curriculum design, and how we are trying to teach our students. And not just teach, but mentor them. And so that we will be able to use your content better. Gabby or Avenelle, I can't remember who said it. But one of you said, I couldn't figure out how to use this-- actually both said this-- I couldn't figure out how to use this.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: So I don't use it. I think that's really an important phrase for you to keep in mind is to don't just build it so it's out there for us. Help us use it. Help us figure out how it's useful and valuable.
DIANE HARNISH: So what does that look like, Jon? What does that conversation sound like or what does it look like?
JONATHAN J. WISCO: Well, a lot of the conversations I have with publishers-- I mean, as an anatomist I get contacted all the time. Hey, do you want to use our brand new shiny tool, and am kind of hem and haw. They're more interested in selling me a product than they are in helping me develop my framework, generally speaking. And again, not every publisher is like that, I understand. But it does come across that way.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: What would be really helpful for me is if someone would take the time to understand how I'm trying to help my students, and to help me find solutions toward that point. And that takes a longer conversation. I get it. And I realize that time is money to a certain extent. And I realize like I said earlier, we have 159 medical students with 159 different pathways.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: But ultimately, at the end of the day, if the content isn't easily usable, or is irrelevant, or I mean, I know it's probably going to be right. It's been vetted at some point. But if it can't help me with my particular way in which I want to help my students then it is not useful. And what worked for one institution is not necessarily going to work for me. So the customizability part is important.
JONATHAN J. WISCO: But that doesn't necessarily translate to granularity. It really helps for the salesperson, or the person behind the product to build that relationship and understanding of how we can work together in a learning process. And not just, hey, you sold me the product, and you're gone. I hate that. That's really, really difficult for me to work with.
DIANE HARNISH: Yeah.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: Great. Well, Diane, I think we are at our time here. Stephanie asked me to reserve just a few minutes at the end here. And Jon brought us to a great closing session. I would like to on behalf of Diane and everyone at Delta Thinking, so much here thank our panelists for such an interesting discussion. I was jotting down notes myself during that conversation. So thank you to each of you for spending your time and sharing your wisdom with us in our group today.
JAKE ZARNEGAR: Thank you very much. And Stephanie, I'm going to turn it over to you. STEPHANIE LOVEGROVE
HANSEN: Fantastic.
HANSEN: Thank you. And thank you to all the panelists. I'm just going to jump on really quickly. And two things to share with everyone who's attending today. One is that this is the second event in our three part series. The final virtual event is going to take place on June 21 with our colleagues from the American Institute of Physics publishing and Data Conversion Laboratory, and we'll be looking at a case study on AIPP's content conversion and migration, and what other publishers can learn from that experience.
HANSEN: And finally, as I mentioned at the start of the event, we are excited to be hosting the return of the in-person platform strategies event this year in Washington, DC, on September 27. And registration for that event opens right now. I'm going to drop a link in the chat. Attendees can also use this discount code to get $25 off registration. And I will be sending all of this via email as well.
HANSEN: So you don't have to memorize it. But we are very excited. We hope to get to see you in DC. We hope to see you for our next virtual event. And we thank you so much for being here today. And thank you so much to all the panelists. We really appreciate it. Great to see everyone. Thank you.
HANSEN:
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