Cadmore media player playing video Just connecting things- How creatives are keeping the metadata flowing
Video Player
Accessibility
Using forms mode, you can utilize keyboard shortcuts to make usability more efficient.
Space bar will play and pause the video. Pressing escape will close all displays and pressing it again will jump to the end of the player.
You can press A to open the Keyboard Shortcut Dialog which also provides an audio description of the player and all of its features.
Language
1x
Play Speed
Adjust Volume
Transcript
Search
Result Count
of
Click to jump to result
Search
Re-center
Segments
Result Count
of
Click to jump to result
Search
Name:
Just connecting things- How creatives are keeping the metadata flowing
Description:
Just connecting things- How creatives are keeping the metadata flowing
Thumbnail URL:
https://cadmoremediastorage.blob.core.windows.net/f0150c98-3069-45ad-b8df-bb0ba015fe70/videoscrubberimages/Scrubber_1.jpg
Duration:
T00H35M17S
Embed URL:
https://stream.cadmore.media/player/f0150c98-3069-45ad-b8df-bb0ba015fe70
Content URL:
https://cadmoreoriginalmedia.blob.core.windows.net/f0150c98-3069-45ad-b8df-bb0ba015fe70/Just connecting things- How creatives are keeping the metada.mp4?sv=2019-02-02&sr=c&sig=XAcswfEuVIUgcSQBJLsCtddukqU0tzQTwMbnGkVyn0g%3D&st=2024-12-22T06%3A19%3A29Z&se=2024-12-22T08%3A24%3A29Z&sp=r
Upload Date:
2024-03-06T00:00:00.0000000
Transcript:
Language: EN.
Segment:0 .
Welcome, everyone. What a great session. I I'm a little hoarse today, so I may have to call on others to do a little more talking than they had anticipated. So hi, Sara, Rachel and Pierre. See, we all followed the big yellow button and we found ourselves in the right room.
Thank you to everybody for joining us, too. You also found the big yellow button. So well done. That's task one completed for the day. So thank you for joining us. In our live discussion today, we're going to be talking a little bit more about some of the topics that were raised in the talks that were given by Sarah and Rachel.
We're also joined by Pierre Pierre gord, who is part of the metal music project. And Pierre is going to talk to us a little bit about that as we move through our conversation today. But just a couple of things around housekeeping. I can see both Kimberly and Sara here, so please feel free to jump in if I'm missing any information that I have to relay to our audience.
But we do have a few pieces of information that we want to share with everybody so that we can keep the conversation going. We've got our live Google doc, so I've been taking some notes from the first session or the first part of our session, so feel free to add more to that. If there are any questions that come to mind, please free to feel free to throw those into the chat or the Q&A and we'll try and pick those up.
If you'd like to speak, we can unmute or we can read your questions out, whichever you would prefer. And just to say we'll keep everything, everything flowing as best as we can, the aim is to have a good conversation and dig into some of the topics that have been raised to see if there might be something of a work project that we can pull together. I think that's probably all I needed to do to get things rolling.
OK well, if there's nothing else that in terms of housekeeping to talk about, I'm delighted to continue this conversation today and also to introduce Pierre, because to you or Pierre wasn't able to be with us for the first part of the session, but we're delighted that he's able to join us and have a chat with us today. So we're going to have a little bit of a pause and listen a little bit more to some of the things that Pierre wants to tell us about metal music and some of the work that he's been doing around metadata and the music industry.
So, Pierre, we were kind of talking a little bit about how we would handle this, and hopefully you're going to give us a little bit of a potted history about what you've been doing. And then we're going to dive into some of those needs around the need for better use of metadata creation and creative context. All right. So everyone made music.
It was born in Quebec in 2020 from a need to master the metadata in the music industry. We started with if you go on the website, you're going to see what we created am a dictionary of metadata that people need to master or need to document along the way, all along the way, from the creation of the musical work to the publishing of the, of the whole of the album, the cd, the vinyl or the, the, the streaming online.
So we started with, with that dictionary that, that, that, that workflow that we want people to, to put on. And now we're creating a tool to really type in all those metadata along the way, connect with different identifiers. So it's ni, the IP, the IP AIBN and make sure that people use the is w c, the Irish RC and UPC and so on and so forth, so that everybody at the end of the day can get a full picture of.
We created this album, we created the musical work and so on and so forth, so that the information don't get mixed up along the way. There's no there's less errors, there's less, there's less typing in when it comes to whether legal deposit that we do with the bear in Quebec with different legal deposit for so can for example. So that we make sure that we get the information straight straight once and then it's a good to go in the ecosystem.
So that's that said we're connected we're connecting IDs and people to make sure that they get their money at the good moment and that they get discovered in a more easy way. Thanks very much. Yeah, that was a real fast tour of all the fabulous things that you've been doing. I think there's so much more to dig into there.
But I think to invite Sarah and Rachel to open their mix as well and join in the conversation, because we were talking as we prepared for this session about what's really driving that need for the better use of metadata. And I wonder if it's possible to just pick up on that a little bit more and talk a little bit about how easy maybe you have found it to work with non-specialists who might be doing this work.
Sarah, you made a fabulous comment in your presentation about the needs in, say, a Film Festival context being very different to the needs of a library when it comes to the metadata associated with video. Yeah, for sure. I think, you know, the one thing that's working in favor of metadata is that any creative person who undergoes a piece of creative expression, their immediate impulse after they've created it, is, how can I share it?
How can it be seen by people who want to see it? Who is the audience for it? How do I get it to them? So they're already predisposed, pre inclined to do that work. It's just the question of how or what does that work look like, what actually is needed. And the burden then shifts to us as information professionals to help facilitate that. But I think the desire is there.
It's just up to us to connect the dots. Yeah and you had a fabulous checklist at the end of your presentation. Is that the kind of tool that's helpful when you're talking to creators of content that enables them to do this work? Yes, for sure. So I think there's that famous saying, you don't know what you don't know.
I think until we ask the question and tell them, here's the types of metadata that you should be looking to supply us, or here are some questions that kick start your own brain activity about how the content will be discovered, who the intended audience is. So when we begin providing that checklist, they're eager to jump in and help fill that out. And that checklist came from.
Shameless plug for the nicely recommended practice from the committee. So that's part of the recommended practice. And anyone who's working in creative forms of multimedia, I encourage you to go read it. It's been published the past couple days. Good shout out. And I think there's a couple of people that have been involved in the creation of that on the session call today.
So hopefully we can dig into some of those whys and wherefores and some possibilities of making better use of those recommendations. But any thoughts from Rachel about that, that. What's driving the need there around the creative creation of metadata? Well, I guess one of the points I wanted to raise, not necessarily in driving need, but actually making it easier for us all to meet that need is that folks are actually more and more used to dealing with all sorts of metadata in their personal and professional lives as well.
So they may not necessarily call it that, but they are asked to describe the outputs they're creating. They're asked to tag photos that they're uploading to social media I have on their phone. And I think because of that, actually, we wouldn't necessarily say that everyone's an expert, but more and more people have more of the knowledge that gets them closer towards being an expert without them necessarily knowing it.
And I think that definitely helps us in having those conversations because actually we've got more examples that we can share with people when we're talking about why they need to do some of what we're asking for in terms of descriptions and metadata. Yeah and do you have any sort of similar sort of experiences of using things like checklists or experiences of engaging with people about the creation of that kind of information?
Not necessarily. I mean, I think one of the other conversations we've had is about the tools that researchers or creators, anyone who is using and what those tools support in their everyday use anyway. So actually if you are uploading pictures to something and it's asking you for that set of information, people are used to having things that are required or not required when they fill out a form.
And so making sure that as service creators and tool developers that we're thinking about those checklists and how we present them to all of our users in a friendly way would probably be part of that rather than explicitly having, you know, checklists somewhere that someone has to go to and work out what it is they actually need to do. Just making it possible within interfaces for everything feels like the most helpful starting point, I think.
Did you want to come in? If I may jump in. And this is very it's very useful. That's that's the mindset we have behind our tool, actually, because it's along the way, you know, at this moment in the studio, these people it's people is coming in to get, you know, capture that information and bringing along with you.
It used to be done all the time by back in the days I was on the cover or on the album cover. So it was there and they focused on it back in the day because it was visible. It was clearly like, my name is on this, on this record album and on this thank you on the things. And so on and so forth. So they have they used to do it back in the day. So they know the information we need.
Once the ones they discover it's not technical anymore because our tool will, will, will work this part for them most, the most of it That needs. Well, they figured out that they have this information. It's just one as it is a notebook, one has it in an Excel file when in an email. And so on and so forth. So we get in text messages sometimes.
So the idea is to bring it all together at some point, make it easy to send it to the different players that need the same information at the end of the day. So I was speaking with the government of Quebec this morning and they need this the same information that Spotify needs for an album. They need it for to make sure that everybody got mentioned or whatever. So so they need that information as well.
So there's so many needs for that same information in all our processes that I think centimeter depository for it. And then you can push 3 buttons in its sent out it's making easy for everybody for non-specialists because None nobody in the music industry is a tech specialist. Well there are some of course in platforms and so on, so fine. But the artist, they were afraid of technology most of the time. They ate it because they think it's stealing them money.
But we are trying to make them, giving them the tools to master that those algorithms and so forth. So it's a mindset. We are so non-specialists, I'm not a specialist myself or I've begun one. But at first I was, I wasn't. But at the end of the day, it's making sure that we take information we already have, make it available in the right format for the right people.
Yeah and you raise a really important point there about sort of the spread of that information and how very difficult it is to try and get that information into the right hands at the right moment. You know, what are the channels for doing that and what are maybe some of the challenges around actually sharing information in that way? Well, it's knowing what those institutions are, what those users need in terms of and making sure that we know that we're trying to connect to those two people that don't speak together to each other directly and making sure that we get to do this heavy lifting for both parts and make it easy for everybody to get the information, because governments are not always tech savvy either.
Let's be honest on this one. They need our help to let them know what we can do and do it for them. At the end of the day. So that's what we're doing. Yeah it would be great to hear from Rachel or Sarah about any of those kind of ways in which you might have overcome some of those challenges as well. Other more interpersonal barriers that may be exist to try and get people, persuade people to adopt better metadata creation practices.
Is there anything that comes to mind about some of the hurdles that you've overcome in your work? For me, I think one of the hurdles is that the different ultimate end goals of different people or organizations in that pipeline. So if we think about ethos as an example, an author of a theses who as a student has a different end goal from the library with whom they're depositing their own thesis, and that individual library may have a different goal for that metadata than we do at ethos.
And actually, we may need to ask things of the authors that they don't really care about, so they can't see why they need to provide us with that metadata. And I think sharing our goals, the ultimate aim of why we want that information might help others to see the same things that we do and actually find out that it benefits them in the long run. I think that feels like one of the hurdles we do have.
Yep Yeah. I think that what Rachel said, it's about that buy in of what is the end goal. Why are we bothering you, pestering you for this busywork to write in these seven fields in this Excel document. But it's about getting them to understand these seven fields are going to help this be seen by more and more and more and more people.
And that's what you want ultimately. But I think it's when you just send a checklist, there has to be some explanation of why you're asking for that rather than just a piece of busywork. Yeah, I think that's a really good point that by in point around understanding what the practical outcomes and benefits are of actually doing that what seems like busy work. So the both of your presentations, Sarah and Rachel and the examples that Pierre is talking about in his presentation, which everybody can access from the skid.
So there's some more information there. All were very rich in exemplifying some of the benefits of actually creating metadata in a specific way for a specific purpose. Is there a way in which we can maybe pull all of those together to try and really exemplify some of those benefits for creatives or anybody doing creative work. So that they, too, can understand what the benefits might be and therefore overcome some of those mental challenges around actually completing the right kind of information.
I think for Pierre, the benefits you're offering are, I mean, not to dilute the altruistic nature of what we do as information professionals, but there's a monetary benefit sometimes for creatives and creative expressions, not free. IT costs money to produce creative output. So I don't know here, maybe you're best equipped to answer that.
Music's the key. The key. The key. The key argument is always money. There's going to be more money if you do it, if you're well, you're going to get paid faster most of the time because there's going to be a question, would it do what and who did what, where and when. So we're going to know.
It's with Disney, for example. Well, we'll know. We'll the API, which is the identifier for the author and composer, is the same person as the IBM. So we're going to connect those with these needs. So we'll know this person gets two checks. So each his money is going to come faster and we're going to be sure it's the right person. There's going to be no question about it.
So, yeah, in our field, clearly, money is an element of why we should we're going to get some people and but we do explain we we're doing our policies and policies at the moment. We are trying to explain why we need this piece of information along the way to better understand once when it's in our system, most of the time is going to stay in our system. So we don't need to put it more and more and more.
But we explain why we want that information. And how it's going to be helpful for them in the long run as well. And we are really asking stuff they don't understand why we need and they do not ask for it yet. Like it is not yet clear for everybody why they need one. But now that apple, for example, asks for it or other players like that will ask for it, it's going to be more and more critical for them to have one and only one, because in music, in the music business, where we have a problem of having to sneeze, which creates more headaches than an otherwise because exchange sends one then then the music brains and then our national libraries and so on and so forth.
So we get, we add at the end they might have two or three of those, but we're trying to connect all those and merge them with the quality team at Disney. So but it's something they don't understand yet. They need one. But that's why we were trying to start the overall thinking and the overall discussions are on its knees and why it's critical for them to have one right now the faster the idea of it.
So yeah, money money in terms of the music music business, the money the money thing is clearly the main argument. But then all those people that won't get paid more. I'm thinking about the technicians and bibliographic designer for the artwork. And so on and so forth. They're not going to be paid more, but they might be found more.
So that's another argument. It's not directly money, but it's in the directly money because if you work with that band, well, now you're famous because you're the bibliographic designer that work with that band if you're a small designer. And and the result is also true if you're a big band that the small designer and if you're the sort of big designer that works with a small band, it's going to give shadows and is going to give a spotlight to everybody in the process.
So that's critical that we have it. Sometimes we do, but sometimes they just keep it or they just remove it from the equation. Because people are lazy. Because people are forgetful. People are they don't see the they don't see why at some point. But if we do it in a, in a well structured manner, it's going to be easier.
So I like the checklist. I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to play on this one. Although our tool is already a checklist by itself, you know, I have it in the format for when they go on studio that they know that this because sometimes some friends came and made a bad vocal but it's not it was not ired it was not even maybe even paid for it, but it was on the recording.
So I did that sometimes. I went on in the studio and sang and left and and I'm not paying for that. And then the singer but you know, the backbeat goes in the group. But at the end of the day, you want that information because you know, you don't know who I am. Maybe I'm going to write a super book and be famous, whatever, and it's going to be fun to know that I worked on that specific piece of music.
And it's, that's why we the more information we have, the more we can connect people and things together and make it findable and useful. Money, money, money is keeping. Money is a key player. But money, money at the end of it can be something of a motivator, can't it? So I think there's definitely a place for that in this conversation.
I think, you know, just hearing you talk there And hearing about some of the things that both Sarah and Rachel have said and others in surplus this year so far. And that business case of metadata being an incredibly important part of the creative work that's actually done in producing all kinds of content. But thinking about how we as an information community can come together to try and just simplify some of those very complex processes and try and get people to engage with the benefits of creating better metadata for all of their content.
I just wonder whether there are and this is a call out to anybody in the audience as well. If anybody does have a specific set of stories, maybe some toolkits or checklists that they too have used that have been quite influential in persuading people to adopt and practices that we might be able to try and collate somehow. I mean, that could be one simple exercise that we could do as a follow on from today's conversation.
Well, maybe we're just going to have to create that collective list of all of the checklists. That checklist. Yeah OK. Well, there we go. That's number one on the list then. So Sarah and Rachel, anything that you want to come in on thereafter?
What I was talking about or any questions that have come to mind about what we might do to pick up on some of the threads in today's conversation. I think I was just going to kind of agree with everything Pierre picked up on and the fact that what we do need to do is understand our audience for this and what their motivations are so that we can give the best arguments towards what it is they're trying to do.
So if you want to make money, fine. This is this is the ways in which we can help you do that. Actually, if it's about your reputation, maybe these are the ways in which we can do that. If you want to find collaborators, here's the best way to present your information. To find collaborators? Yeah basing everything we can, if possible, on kind of an evidence base of what our audience needs would be the key thing for me, I think.
Yeah I guess following on that too is sometimes painting the picture for the content creator of what new audience we can help connect them to. So they created something and they have a target audience in mind. Very often there's a whole other audience that exists that they're just unaware of. And so telling them, here's this other audience.
It's students, it's scholars, it's researchers, and this metadata is going to help expose you to them in these ways. I think sometimes that's important for us to articulate to the content creator. Yeah and there's a great comment from Mel in the chat about a plain language approach would be being great for the checklists and guidelines. I think sometimes when we're in our modes, we continue to talk in a specific way that might not be as accessible to everybody.
So I think that's a really great point and some more things that are following on from that, getting bogged down in professional ese, which can close processes off a little bit. So I think finding those everyday practical applications can be a really useful thing for us to expose and perhaps feed into some of the recommendations. I see Michelle's put something in about various aspects of the video recommended practice and tips and tricks that Sarah shared.
I'm just going to read the longer comment from Kimberly. Kimberly, do you want to turn your mic on and have a chat with us? No pressure. No worries, not pressure. I am curious. I mean, a lot of what I am familiar with is these practices kind of being adopted more readily in creatives who have Association with academic environments or with communities that have a certain practice of attributing this metadata.
These and like museums have a certain. Artist title, medium date kind of practice. There are a lot of creatives that don't have associations with those environments and frankly, getting them to take on more administration is sometimes challenging. So it really has to come from an exterior motivation. And I'm wondering, how do you see some of their commercial affiliations, galleries or recording studios being approached or facilitating this?
And then have, which is a second question maybe do we see this growing because of more digital practices and the incorporation of these practices, especially with NFTS or digital art on blockchain? Well, I can. I can start on the beginning of an answer. Well, the motivation as soon as people we're trying to find people, we have users for metadata data to foster adoption of this practice that.
Be able to command the music. So we are working with different partners or different players in the process. So yes, studios, for example, will be they're not yet as well. But since everything takes place on their premises for the most part, but not always, because there's a lot of non studio based practices people have own base to do is right now.
So so. So it's a different there's many, many different way of doing music in 2023. So we need to adapt to all those things, to all those, those. But yes, the studios are also situated in terms of having, you know, dashboards where they connect in the studio to collect metadata right at the studio instead of having it on paper. And so on and so forth.
So we want we want we want to work with those people to collect information right where it's happening. When it comes to NFTS, it's a different set of metadata that they require. But we are trying to well, we see I see it as a format, as one more format for the same thing, same thing. So a song is recorded, it's put on a cd, it's put on streaming, it's put on the vinyl, it's put on an NFT. So it's a different format for pretty much unless it's 111 time.
So that's it's still sort of work in progress. It said we're guessing, but the fact that those new formats exist, new artists are one more one more into metadata than the old school artists. The artists don't understand why they need to do that to do this again on their old catalog. So that's a different perspective. But the new artists are well aware of those things.
But there are so there's also the this, this, this non tech crowd of music. So that's the new generation that is all NFT based. But there's also this new old generation, I'll call them, that are still analog based. So we need to bridge the gap with those people. So and there's people working in smart contracts at the moment, which happens on top of ours our thing so it's not our goal is to make sure that we bridged the gap between analog and the NFT based you kind of art.
So yes the new digital practices lead the fact that we need a better approach with in music because in Quebec for example, we don't get much visibility outside of Quebec because the tags and spotify, for example, are indeed from Quebec or from Quebec. That's it. We we don't have all those sort of tags, that fancy tags that some artists get in the US or in Europe.
So we need to work in better describing our, our music to connect with the likes of artists because our artists have reached outside of Quebec, of course, but they're always connect in between them instead of connecting with the similar artists in from, from, from abroad. So if you're into radiohead, for example, in Quebec, you should, you should know the band called because it's it's, you know, it's our Radiohead.
So you should be connected with them. And if you're a fan of Radiohead in France, you might like as well. But there's no way those two bands connect because they're not at the same time at all. So it's, it's one, one, one thing. But this so this kind of approach, just kind of understanding how algorithms work make that we master more the material.
So it's a work in progress. It's, it's we come from an analog perspective for many people they don't even have a website at the moment sometimes. So it's kind of hard to connect them with the algorithms. But we're working with the thought of a global industry change of mind or spirit or focus. Just to comment on one of the things you mentioned there, I think it also raises the issue of who gets to say what about other people's outputs as well and how we link towards that.
Because actually that band who as an audience, we might say they're a lot like radiohead, but they might want say, no, we have nothing to do with them. We're not like them at all. We're totally different and they might not want you to make those connections. So yeah, I think who gets to say what is an important thing to think about with that kind of metadata as well? I have a funny, funny, funny example.
There's a band I'm a big fan of garage rock, so I listen to them from around the world. And I have this. To a younger watch rock playlist on Spotify. And there's a band from Toronto. Which which is which? Which is an album out from a Montreal label. But they told me it was an Australian band. So that's when I got to the store and I found out, oh, it's a Canadian band.
So why did, did, did because they're, they're, they're big in Australia. And so and so forth. So which is cool. But at the end of the day I thought they were Australian, but they're Canadian. So it's a problem is, it's a, it's a clear example of what we need to do to flag those, those Canadian content locally. I mean, we want to know who's local and who's not.
And the algorithm sends me the local content sometimes, but it's by mistake, basically. It's not it was not a clear intent from the algorithm. But that's exactly the perspective of what people say about our band will have impact. So the media so the playlists and so on and so forth. So but if we could have a better output ourselves about what we are, what we want the algorithms to know about us, then it helps foster those, those intertwining of recrimination.
So it's a mix of both. But yeah, the other day people would they say they have power over what we are. Yeah we're coming up to the time for our session today. It feels like this conversation could go on and perhaps it should. So one of the purposes of having these conversations at my surplus is to try and understand where we might be able to extend the conversation, think about a specific activity and maybe some kind of work project that might evolve from what all the good ideas that are being discussed today.
And I do wonder, as you're talking there, about whether there are already existing standards that maybe exist, that we need to put into some of those checklists that we've been talking about. And if that's not the case, then maybe there's something of an investigation into what types of standards could be useful to try and overcome some of these challenges that we've just been talking about. So this is a shout out to our audience and also our fabulous session speakers today to see whether anybody would be interested in doing that.
And if anybody's got anything to contribute as well to already existing standards that might be adopted by various different creative communities to deal with the creation of metadata and perhaps more coherent and useful way. I think one of the things that has come out of several pieces of work, including the practice research works that is there is also a session tomorrow on if things like those contributor roles.
So the fact that we have quite STEM focused ones at the moment when you get into the humanities and through the arts representing all the ways in which folks can contribute their expertise and skills into outputs is feels like a very obvious place to start in terms of expanding to creative worlds. Yeah, that's a really good point. Maybe there's a joining up of some of those conversations with the practice research and our conversations.
We talked a little bit about the gaming industry as well and the various different smart contracts that are used there. So I do wonder whether there's something that we could look at across all of those different pieces where there are multiple contributors to the creation of one product. OK well, unless there are any other comments that the session speakers, Rachel, Pierre and Sara would like to make it to round off our discussion today.
I'll give you a minute to think about that. And if anybody from the audience has anything else that they too would like to bring up, then this is your chance to say something or pop something in the chat. We have got the Google Doc open and people are adding bits and pieces to that. So that will be live throughout ISO Plus and we'll welcome anybody's comments and thoughts about how we might be able to shape some of these ideas that we've been talking around today into some activities.
So if there's nothing coming up from the virtual floor, as it were, I think it just leads me to say thank you so much to everybody for coming along today. A tremendous debt of gratitude to Rachel, Sarah and Pierre for your fabulous contributions. As I said, their presentations are on the scale. If you want to look at some of the slides and some of the information in more detail.
We've added lots of links to the doc as well. So you can follow up with any of the projects that have been talked about today as well. So thank you all so much for your time. Thank you for your press preparations and for having a great conversation today. We'll sign off now. Thanks, everybody. Thank you.
Thank you all. Thanks, Rachel, Pierre and Sarah, that was fabulous. Thank you. Goodbye thank you. Bye bye.
Segment:0 .
Welcome, everyone. What a great session. I I'm a little hoarse today, so I may have to call on others to do a little more talking than they had anticipated. So hi, Sara, Rachel and Pierre. See, we all followed the big yellow button and we found ourselves in the right room.
Thank you to everybody for joining us, too. You also found the big yellow button. So well done. That's task one completed for the day. So thank you for joining us. In our live discussion today, we're going to be talking a little bit more about some of the topics that were raised in the talks that were given by Sarah and Rachel.
We're also joined by Pierre Pierre gord, who is part of the metal music project. And Pierre is going to talk to us a little bit about that as we move through our conversation today. But just a couple of things around housekeeping. I can see both Kimberly and Sara here, so please feel free to jump in if I'm missing any information that I have to relay to our audience.
But we do have a few pieces of information that we want to share with everybody so that we can keep the conversation going. We've got our live Google doc, so I've been taking some notes from the first session or the first part of our session, so feel free to add more to that. If there are any questions that come to mind, please free to feel free to throw those into the chat or the Q&A and we'll try and pick those up.
If you'd like to speak, we can unmute or we can read your questions out, whichever you would prefer. And just to say we'll keep everything, everything flowing as best as we can, the aim is to have a good conversation and dig into some of the topics that have been raised to see if there might be something of a work project that we can pull together. I think that's probably all I needed to do to get things rolling.
OK well, if there's nothing else that in terms of housekeeping to talk about, I'm delighted to continue this conversation today and also to introduce Pierre, because to you or Pierre wasn't able to be with us for the first part of the session, but we're delighted that he's able to join us and have a chat with us today. So we're going to have a little bit of a pause and listen a little bit more to some of the things that Pierre wants to tell us about metal music and some of the work that he's been doing around metadata and the music industry.
So, Pierre, we were kind of talking a little bit about how we would handle this, and hopefully you're going to give us a little bit of a potted history about what you've been doing. And then we're going to dive into some of those needs around the need for better use of metadata creation and creative context. All right. So everyone made music.
It was born in Quebec in 2020 from a need to master the metadata in the music industry. We started with if you go on the website, you're going to see what we created am a dictionary of metadata that people need to master or need to document along the way, all along the way, from the creation of the musical work to the publishing of the, of the whole of the album, the cd, the vinyl or the, the, the streaming online.
So we started with, with that dictionary that, that, that, that workflow that we want people to, to put on. And now we're creating a tool to really type in all those metadata along the way, connect with different identifiers. So it's ni, the IP, the IP AIBN and make sure that people use the is w c, the Irish RC and UPC and so on and so forth, so that everybody at the end of the day can get a full picture of.
We created this album, we created the musical work and so on and so forth, so that the information don't get mixed up along the way. There's no there's less errors, there's less, there's less typing in when it comes to whether legal deposit that we do with the bear in Quebec with different legal deposit for so can for example. So that we make sure that we get the information straight straight once and then it's a good to go in the ecosystem.
So that's that said we're connected we're connecting IDs and people to make sure that they get their money at the good moment and that they get discovered in a more easy way. Thanks very much. Yeah, that was a real fast tour of all the fabulous things that you've been doing. I think there's so much more to dig into there.
But I think to invite Sarah and Rachel to open their mix as well and join in the conversation, because we were talking as we prepared for this session about what's really driving that need for the better use of metadata. And I wonder if it's possible to just pick up on that a little bit more and talk a little bit about how easy maybe you have found it to work with non-specialists who might be doing this work.
Sarah, you made a fabulous comment in your presentation about the needs in, say, a Film Festival context being very different to the needs of a library when it comes to the metadata associated with video. Yeah, for sure. I think, you know, the one thing that's working in favor of metadata is that any creative person who undergoes a piece of creative expression, their immediate impulse after they've created it, is, how can I share it?
How can it be seen by people who want to see it? Who is the audience for it? How do I get it to them? So they're already predisposed, pre inclined to do that work. It's just the question of how or what does that work look like, what actually is needed. And the burden then shifts to us as information professionals to help facilitate that. But I think the desire is there.
It's just up to us to connect the dots. Yeah and you had a fabulous checklist at the end of your presentation. Is that the kind of tool that's helpful when you're talking to creators of content that enables them to do this work? Yes, for sure. So I think there's that famous saying, you don't know what you don't know.
I think until we ask the question and tell them, here's the types of metadata that you should be looking to supply us, or here are some questions that kick start your own brain activity about how the content will be discovered, who the intended audience is. So when we begin providing that checklist, they're eager to jump in and help fill that out. And that checklist came from.
Shameless plug for the nicely recommended practice from the committee. So that's part of the recommended practice. And anyone who's working in creative forms of multimedia, I encourage you to go read it. It's been published the past couple days. Good shout out. And I think there's a couple of people that have been involved in the creation of that on the session call today.
So hopefully we can dig into some of those whys and wherefores and some possibilities of making better use of those recommendations. But any thoughts from Rachel about that, that. What's driving the need there around the creative creation of metadata? Well, I guess one of the points I wanted to raise, not necessarily in driving need, but actually making it easier for us all to meet that need is that folks are actually more and more used to dealing with all sorts of metadata in their personal and professional lives as well.
So they may not necessarily call it that, but they are asked to describe the outputs they're creating. They're asked to tag photos that they're uploading to social media I have on their phone. And I think because of that, actually, we wouldn't necessarily say that everyone's an expert, but more and more people have more of the knowledge that gets them closer towards being an expert without them necessarily knowing it.
And I think that definitely helps us in having those conversations because actually we've got more examples that we can share with people when we're talking about why they need to do some of what we're asking for in terms of descriptions and metadata. Yeah and do you have any sort of similar sort of experiences of using things like checklists or experiences of engaging with people about the creation of that kind of information?
Not necessarily. I mean, I think one of the other conversations we've had is about the tools that researchers or creators, anyone who is using and what those tools support in their everyday use anyway. So actually if you are uploading pictures to something and it's asking you for that set of information, people are used to having things that are required or not required when they fill out a form.
And so making sure that as service creators and tool developers that we're thinking about those checklists and how we present them to all of our users in a friendly way would probably be part of that rather than explicitly having, you know, checklists somewhere that someone has to go to and work out what it is they actually need to do. Just making it possible within interfaces for everything feels like the most helpful starting point, I think.
Did you want to come in? If I may jump in. And this is very it's very useful. That's that's the mindset we have behind our tool, actually, because it's along the way, you know, at this moment in the studio, these people it's people is coming in to get, you know, capture that information and bringing along with you.
It used to be done all the time by back in the days I was on the cover or on the album cover. So it was there and they focused on it back in the day because it was visible. It was clearly like, my name is on this, on this record album and on this thank you on the things. And so on and so forth. So they have they used to do it back in the day. So they know the information we need.
Once the ones they discover it's not technical anymore because our tool will, will, will work this part for them most, the most of it That needs. Well, they figured out that they have this information. It's just one as it is a notebook, one has it in an Excel file when in an email. And so on and so forth. So we get in text messages sometimes.
So the idea is to bring it all together at some point, make it easy to send it to the different players that need the same information at the end of the day. So I was speaking with the government of Quebec this morning and they need this the same information that Spotify needs for an album. They need it for to make sure that everybody got mentioned or whatever. So so they need that information as well.
So there's so many needs for that same information in all our processes that I think centimeter depository for it. And then you can push 3 buttons in its sent out it's making easy for everybody for non-specialists because None nobody in the music industry is a tech specialist. Well there are some of course in platforms and so on, so fine. But the artist, they were afraid of technology most of the time. They ate it because they think it's stealing them money.
But we are trying to make them, giving them the tools to master that those algorithms and so forth. So it's a mindset. We are so non-specialists, I'm not a specialist myself or I've begun one. But at first I was, I wasn't. But at the end of the day, it's making sure that we take information we already have, make it available in the right format for the right people.
Yeah and you raise a really important point there about sort of the spread of that information and how very difficult it is to try and get that information into the right hands at the right moment. You know, what are the channels for doing that and what are maybe some of the challenges around actually sharing information in that way? Well, it's knowing what those institutions are, what those users need in terms of and making sure that we know that we're trying to connect to those two people that don't speak together to each other directly and making sure that we get to do this heavy lifting for both parts and make it easy for everybody to get the information, because governments are not always tech savvy either.
Let's be honest on this one. They need our help to let them know what we can do and do it for them. At the end of the day. So that's what we're doing. Yeah it would be great to hear from Rachel or Sarah about any of those kind of ways in which you might have overcome some of those challenges as well. Other more interpersonal barriers that may be exist to try and get people, persuade people to adopt better metadata creation practices.
Is there anything that comes to mind about some of the hurdles that you've overcome in your work? For me, I think one of the hurdles is that the different ultimate end goals of different people or organizations in that pipeline. So if we think about ethos as an example, an author of a theses who as a student has a different end goal from the library with whom they're depositing their own thesis, and that individual library may have a different goal for that metadata than we do at ethos.
And actually, we may need to ask things of the authors that they don't really care about, so they can't see why they need to provide us with that metadata. And I think sharing our goals, the ultimate aim of why we want that information might help others to see the same things that we do and actually find out that it benefits them in the long run. I think that feels like one of the hurdles we do have.
Yep Yeah. I think that what Rachel said, it's about that buy in of what is the end goal. Why are we bothering you, pestering you for this busywork to write in these seven fields in this Excel document. But it's about getting them to understand these seven fields are going to help this be seen by more and more and more and more people.
And that's what you want ultimately. But I think it's when you just send a checklist, there has to be some explanation of why you're asking for that rather than just a piece of busywork. Yeah, I think that's a really good point that by in point around understanding what the practical outcomes and benefits are of actually doing that what seems like busy work. So the both of your presentations, Sarah and Rachel and the examples that Pierre is talking about in his presentation, which everybody can access from the skid.
So there's some more information there. All were very rich in exemplifying some of the benefits of actually creating metadata in a specific way for a specific purpose. Is there a way in which we can maybe pull all of those together to try and really exemplify some of those benefits for creatives or anybody doing creative work. So that they, too, can understand what the benefits might be and therefore overcome some of those mental challenges around actually completing the right kind of information.
I think for Pierre, the benefits you're offering are, I mean, not to dilute the altruistic nature of what we do as information professionals, but there's a monetary benefit sometimes for creatives and creative expressions, not free. IT costs money to produce creative output. So I don't know here, maybe you're best equipped to answer that.
Music's the key. The key. The key. The key argument is always money. There's going to be more money if you do it, if you're well, you're going to get paid faster most of the time because there's going to be a question, would it do what and who did what, where and when. So we're going to know.
It's with Disney, for example. Well, we'll know. We'll the API, which is the identifier for the author and composer, is the same person as the IBM. So we're going to connect those with these needs. So we'll know this person gets two checks. So each his money is going to come faster and we're going to be sure it's the right person. There's going to be no question about it.
So, yeah, in our field, clearly, money is an element of why we should we're going to get some people and but we do explain we we're doing our policies and policies at the moment. We are trying to explain why we need this piece of information along the way to better understand once when it's in our system, most of the time is going to stay in our system. So we don't need to put it more and more and more.
But we explain why we want that information. And how it's going to be helpful for them in the long run as well. And we are really asking stuff they don't understand why we need and they do not ask for it yet. Like it is not yet clear for everybody why they need one. But now that apple, for example, asks for it or other players like that will ask for it, it's going to be more and more critical for them to have one and only one, because in music, in the music business, where we have a problem of having to sneeze, which creates more headaches than an otherwise because exchange sends one then then the music brains and then our national libraries and so on and so forth.
So we get, we add at the end they might have two or three of those, but we're trying to connect all those and merge them with the quality team at Disney. So but it's something they don't understand yet. They need one. But that's why we were trying to start the overall thinking and the overall discussions are on its knees and why it's critical for them to have one right now the faster the idea of it.
So yeah, money money in terms of the music music business, the money the money thing is clearly the main argument. But then all those people that won't get paid more. I'm thinking about the technicians and bibliographic designer for the artwork. And so on and so forth. They're not going to be paid more, but they might be found more.
So that's another argument. It's not directly money, but it's in the directly money because if you work with that band, well, now you're famous because you're the bibliographic designer that work with that band if you're a small designer. And and the result is also true if you're a big band that the small designer and if you're the sort of big designer that works with a small band, it's going to give shadows and is going to give a spotlight to everybody in the process.
So that's critical that we have it. Sometimes we do, but sometimes they just keep it or they just remove it from the equation. Because people are lazy. Because people are forgetful. People are they don't see the they don't see why at some point. But if we do it in a, in a well structured manner, it's going to be easier.
So I like the checklist. I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to play on this one. Although our tool is already a checklist by itself, you know, I have it in the format for when they go on studio that they know that this because sometimes some friends came and made a bad vocal but it's not it was not ired it was not even maybe even paid for it, but it was on the recording.
So I did that sometimes. I went on in the studio and sang and left and and I'm not paying for that. And then the singer but you know, the backbeat goes in the group. But at the end of the day, you want that information because you know, you don't know who I am. Maybe I'm going to write a super book and be famous, whatever, and it's going to be fun to know that I worked on that specific piece of music.
And it's, that's why we the more information we have, the more we can connect people and things together and make it findable and useful. Money, money, money is keeping. Money is a key player. But money, money at the end of it can be something of a motivator, can't it? So I think there's definitely a place for that in this conversation.
I think, you know, just hearing you talk there And hearing about some of the things that both Sarah and Rachel have said and others in surplus this year so far. And that business case of metadata being an incredibly important part of the creative work that's actually done in producing all kinds of content. But thinking about how we as an information community can come together to try and just simplify some of those very complex processes and try and get people to engage with the benefits of creating better metadata for all of their content.
I just wonder whether there are and this is a call out to anybody in the audience as well. If anybody does have a specific set of stories, maybe some toolkits or checklists that they too have used that have been quite influential in persuading people to adopt and practices that we might be able to try and collate somehow. I mean, that could be one simple exercise that we could do as a follow on from today's conversation.
Well, maybe we're just going to have to create that collective list of all of the checklists. That checklist. Yeah OK. Well, there we go. That's number one on the list then. So Sarah and Rachel, anything that you want to come in on thereafter?
What I was talking about or any questions that have come to mind about what we might do to pick up on some of the threads in today's conversation. I think I was just going to kind of agree with everything Pierre picked up on and the fact that what we do need to do is understand our audience for this and what their motivations are so that we can give the best arguments towards what it is they're trying to do.
So if you want to make money, fine. This is this is the ways in which we can help you do that. Actually, if it's about your reputation, maybe these are the ways in which we can do that. If you want to find collaborators, here's the best way to present your information. To find collaborators? Yeah basing everything we can, if possible, on kind of an evidence base of what our audience needs would be the key thing for me, I think.
Yeah I guess following on that too is sometimes painting the picture for the content creator of what new audience we can help connect them to. So they created something and they have a target audience in mind. Very often there's a whole other audience that exists that they're just unaware of. And so telling them, here's this other audience.
It's students, it's scholars, it's researchers, and this metadata is going to help expose you to them in these ways. I think sometimes that's important for us to articulate to the content creator. Yeah and there's a great comment from Mel in the chat about a plain language approach would be being great for the checklists and guidelines. I think sometimes when we're in our modes, we continue to talk in a specific way that might not be as accessible to everybody.
So I think that's a really great point and some more things that are following on from that, getting bogged down in professional ese, which can close processes off a little bit. So I think finding those everyday practical applications can be a really useful thing for us to expose and perhaps feed into some of the recommendations. I see Michelle's put something in about various aspects of the video recommended practice and tips and tricks that Sarah shared.
I'm just going to read the longer comment from Kimberly. Kimberly, do you want to turn your mic on and have a chat with us? No pressure. No worries, not pressure. I am curious. I mean, a lot of what I am familiar with is these practices kind of being adopted more readily in creatives who have Association with academic environments or with communities that have a certain practice of attributing this metadata.
These and like museums have a certain. Artist title, medium date kind of practice. There are a lot of creatives that don't have associations with those environments and frankly, getting them to take on more administration is sometimes challenging. So it really has to come from an exterior motivation. And I'm wondering, how do you see some of their commercial affiliations, galleries or recording studios being approached or facilitating this?
And then have, which is a second question maybe do we see this growing because of more digital practices and the incorporation of these practices, especially with NFTS or digital art on blockchain? Well, I can. I can start on the beginning of an answer. Well, the motivation as soon as people we're trying to find people, we have users for metadata data to foster adoption of this practice that.
Be able to command the music. So we are working with different partners or different players in the process. So yes, studios, for example, will be they're not yet as well. But since everything takes place on their premises for the most part, but not always, because there's a lot of non studio based practices people have own base to do is right now.
So so. So it's a different there's many, many different way of doing music in 2023. So we need to adapt to all those things, to all those, those. But yes, the studios are also situated in terms of having, you know, dashboards where they connect in the studio to collect metadata right at the studio instead of having it on paper. And so on and so forth.
So we want we want we want to work with those people to collect information right where it's happening. When it comes to NFTS, it's a different set of metadata that they require. But we are trying to well, we see I see it as a format, as one more format for the same thing, same thing. So a song is recorded, it's put on a cd, it's put on streaming, it's put on the vinyl, it's put on an NFT. So it's a different format for pretty much unless it's 111 time.
So that's it's still sort of work in progress. It said we're guessing, but the fact that those new formats exist, new artists are one more one more into metadata than the old school artists. The artists don't understand why they need to do that to do this again on their old catalog. So that's a different perspective. But the new artists are well aware of those things.
But there are so there's also the this, this, this non tech crowd of music. So that's the new generation that is all NFT based. But there's also this new old generation, I'll call them, that are still analog based. So we need to bridge the gap with those people. So and there's people working in smart contracts at the moment, which happens on top of ours our thing so it's not our goal is to make sure that we bridged the gap between analog and the NFT based you kind of art.
So yes the new digital practices lead the fact that we need a better approach with in music because in Quebec for example, we don't get much visibility outside of Quebec because the tags and spotify, for example, are indeed from Quebec or from Quebec. That's it. We we don't have all those sort of tags, that fancy tags that some artists get in the US or in Europe.
So we need to work in better describing our, our music to connect with the likes of artists because our artists have reached outside of Quebec, of course, but they're always connect in between them instead of connecting with the similar artists in from, from, from abroad. So if you're into radiohead, for example, in Quebec, you should, you should know the band called because it's it's, you know, it's our Radiohead.
So you should be connected with them. And if you're a fan of Radiohead in France, you might like as well. But there's no way those two bands connect because they're not at the same time at all. So it's, it's one, one, one thing. But this so this kind of approach, just kind of understanding how algorithms work make that we master more the material.
So it's a work in progress. It's, it's we come from an analog perspective for many people they don't even have a website at the moment sometimes. So it's kind of hard to connect them with the algorithms. But we're working with the thought of a global industry change of mind or spirit or focus. Just to comment on one of the things you mentioned there, I think it also raises the issue of who gets to say what about other people's outputs as well and how we link towards that.
Because actually that band who as an audience, we might say they're a lot like radiohead, but they might want say, no, we have nothing to do with them. We're not like them at all. We're totally different and they might not want you to make those connections. So yeah, I think who gets to say what is an important thing to think about with that kind of metadata as well? I have a funny, funny, funny example.
There's a band I'm a big fan of garage rock, so I listen to them from around the world. And I have this. To a younger watch rock playlist on Spotify. And there's a band from Toronto. Which which is which? Which is an album out from a Montreal label. But they told me it was an Australian band. So that's when I got to the store and I found out, oh, it's a Canadian band.
So why did, did, did because they're, they're, they're big in Australia. And so and so forth. So which is cool. But at the end of the day I thought they were Australian, but they're Canadian. So it's a problem is, it's a, it's a clear example of what we need to do to flag those, those Canadian content locally. I mean, we want to know who's local and who's not.
And the algorithm sends me the local content sometimes, but it's by mistake, basically. It's not it was not a clear intent from the algorithm. But that's exactly the perspective of what people say about our band will have impact. So the media so the playlists and so on and so forth. So but if we could have a better output ourselves about what we are, what we want the algorithms to know about us, then it helps foster those, those intertwining of recrimination.
So it's a mix of both. But yeah, the other day people would they say they have power over what we are. Yeah we're coming up to the time for our session today. It feels like this conversation could go on and perhaps it should. So one of the purposes of having these conversations at my surplus is to try and understand where we might be able to extend the conversation, think about a specific activity and maybe some kind of work project that might evolve from what all the good ideas that are being discussed today.
And I do wonder, as you're talking there, about whether there are already existing standards that maybe exist, that we need to put into some of those checklists that we've been talking about. And if that's not the case, then maybe there's something of an investigation into what types of standards could be useful to try and overcome some of these challenges that we've just been talking about. So this is a shout out to our audience and also our fabulous session speakers today to see whether anybody would be interested in doing that.
And if anybody's got anything to contribute as well to already existing standards that might be adopted by various different creative communities to deal with the creation of metadata and perhaps more coherent and useful way. I think one of the things that has come out of several pieces of work, including the practice research works that is there is also a session tomorrow on if things like those contributor roles.
So the fact that we have quite STEM focused ones at the moment when you get into the humanities and through the arts representing all the ways in which folks can contribute their expertise and skills into outputs is feels like a very obvious place to start in terms of expanding to creative worlds. Yeah, that's a really good point. Maybe there's a joining up of some of those conversations with the practice research and our conversations.
We talked a little bit about the gaming industry as well and the various different smart contracts that are used there. So I do wonder whether there's something that we could look at across all of those different pieces where there are multiple contributors to the creation of one product. OK well, unless there are any other comments that the session speakers, Rachel, Pierre and Sara would like to make it to round off our discussion today.
I'll give you a minute to think about that. And if anybody from the audience has anything else that they too would like to bring up, then this is your chance to say something or pop something in the chat. We have got the Google Doc open and people are adding bits and pieces to that. So that will be live throughout ISO Plus and we'll welcome anybody's comments and thoughts about how we might be able to shape some of these ideas that we've been talking around today into some activities.
So if there's nothing coming up from the virtual floor, as it were, I think it just leads me to say thank you so much to everybody for coming along today. A tremendous debt of gratitude to Rachel, Sarah and Pierre for your fabulous contributions. As I said, their presentations are on the scale. If you want to look at some of the slides and some of the information in more detail.
We've added lots of links to the doc as well. So you can follow up with any of the projects that have been talked about today as well. So thank you all so much for your time. Thank you for your press preparations and for having a great conversation today. We'll sign off now. Thanks, everybody. Thank you.
Thank you all. Thanks, Rachel, Pierre and Sarah, that was fabulous. Thank you. Goodbye thank you. Bye bye.
Form Title Download
Transcript
Form Title Bookmark
Entire Media
Segment(s)
Custom Clip
Start At:
End At:
Form Title Share
Entire Media
Segment(s)
Custom Clip
Start At:
End At:
Form Title Accessibility and Keyboard Shortcuts
The cadmore media player is a professional video and audio player experience designed to deliver media as well as relevant transcript, segmentation, and metadata. On the screen is a traditional html video player with buttons such as play, pause, forward, captioning, language and play speed selection and more. Adjacent to the video player are generally tabs, one of which shows a scrolling transcript of the video and the other shows any segmentation of the media, sometimes referred to as chapters. At the top of the video is a menu bar containing an Explore button and Tools button. The Explore button allows you to dig deeper into the video by opening up an explore dialog which contains tabs for a visual navigation of the video using thumbnails, an about tab which contains rich metadata about the media, a segments tab which contains further information about the video, and a related tab which contains links to other media related to this media. The tools button opens a menu with options for sharing the media on social media, creating bookmarking links, creating embed codes for your website, generating citations, and more.
Keyboard Shortcuts
Keyboard shortcuts only work while you are in forms mode. By entering forms mode, you will be able to quickly access portions of the media player with single key commands.
Spacebar: Play/Pause Toggle
I: Info Menu,
O: Tools Menu
T: Transcript Tab,
S: Segments Tab
F: Forward 15,
R: Rewind 15
L: Languages,
P: Playspeed
M: Mute Toggle,
V: Volume Bar
N: Video Only Toggle,
B: Full Screen Toggle
C: Captions Toggle
Escape: Closes dialogs and menus / Exits Player
Z: Next Transcript Chapter
X: Previous Transcript Chapter
Q: Next Transcript Paragraph
W: Previous Transcript Paragraph
Entire Media
Segment(s)
Custom Clip
Start At:
End At:
Embed Size
-
You Size - Responsive
-
We Size - Responsive
-
Picture Overlay Popup
-
400 x 225
-
512 x 288
-
400 x 700
-
768 x 1024
-
1024 x 512
-
1280 x 608
Form Title Cite
No citation provided.
Info
Segments
Related
Thumbnails
Exit Clip Mode
You have requested to see a portion of the video outside of the clip.
Click OK to switch to the full video or click if you would like to stay inside the clip. You can always go back to the clip with Tools and Clip Mode