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PS26: Hello from the other side: what other industries can teach publishing
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PS26: Hello from the other side: what other industries can teach publishing
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Segment:0 .
DAVID NYGREN: All right. Welcome back, everybody. I'm David Nygren, Chief Business Development Officer at Silverchair. Before I introduce our panelists I want to test a hypothesis of mine. Scientific poll. Please raise your hand if you've worked outside of scholarly publishing at some point within the past five years.
DAVID NYGREN: Not bad. Right? Past 10 years? A few more. Past 26 years? All right, so proving the point, I think, everybody knows, not a novel finding. This room, and really, this industry is filled with people who have been in this industry for a long time.
DAVID NYGREN: It's very common for people to spend their entire careers in this industry, sometimes at one publisher, sometimes at one journal. That is not the case for my fellow panelists here, who have delightfully diverse experience across not only organizations, but across industries. So sitting next to me is Penny Ladkin-Brand, the CEO of Taylor and Francis since 2004. This is her first foray into this industry-- sorry 2024, three years, two years.
DAVID NYGREN: She has previously worked at-- you should introduce. Why don't you introduce yourself, rather than have me stumbling through it?
PENNY LADKIN-BRAND: Yeah. You were doing a great job. So I'm a CFO by background. So this is my first stint in the CEO hot seat. And change and disruption have been the enduring threads throughout my career. So I was formerly at Future, a consumer media business, and before that I was at Auto Trader, which was at the time a weekly print classifieds magazine and a digital marketplace.
PENNY LADKIN-BRAND: And before that I was in audit and M&A advisory. So lots of change and disruption throughout my career.
DAVID NYGREN: Ha-Hoa.
HA-HOA HAMANO: I'm Ha-Hoa Hamano. I am local to GC. I was recently a Principal Product Manager at the Department of Education, federal student aid. No, I can't forgive your loans. I'm so sorry. But I am here speaking on my personal behalf. I was formerly at Nasa, and then formerly NPR, and so also just really excited to have sat on the last panel about where the future is going for publishing.
HA-HOA HAMANO: And, yeah, excited to be here.
KELLI PALMER: Are you sure you can't forgive my student loans?
HA-HOA HAMANO: I'm so sorry.
KELLI PALMER: I have a lot of degrees. Kelli Palmer I am currently the Fractional Chief Operating officer for Averett University in Danville, Virginia. My background is that I've been in higher education at the University of Virginia in the President's Office. I've been at CFA Institute, the Chartered Financial Analyst institute, which is investment management, has an academic component, has a publishing component, but also services the investment management industry.
KELLI PALMER: Then I was at-- well, I was at Willow Tree, which is a tech company that made apps and websites, and that organization got acquired by Telus, which is the telco of Canada. And so I ended up leading people operations for them and doing things around the M&A space as we progressively got consumed and consumed other businesses. And then I took a break, and that's how we got here.
DAVID NYGREN: Great so you've each moved around a lot, a of industries, a lot of organizations. What has all of that moving around, what has that moving around taught you, and what has it given you that you don't get, that one doesn't get by staying in one industry, in one place? And what do you think, what lessons are there for our industry there?
KELLI PALMER: I think having a variety of workplaces and a variety of roles, which I've had in all of those workplaces, they varied tremendously, gives you this interesting toolbox, if you use that metaphor. And I've got, like, a wrench and a screwdriver and a drill and a hammer and all these sorts of things. And when you change industry environments, I found that the wrench is still handy. It just may not be for the thing that you used the wrench for in the last environment.
KELLI PALMER: Does that follow? So I've gotten really good at looking down into my toolbox and going, I've got a solution for this, and then figuring out what to do from there. And so that leads to this out of the box thinking, this creativity when approaching a problem that can be deeply annoying to the people who've been in that environment long term, and also inspires just enough difference, on occasion, to allow for the breakthrough thing to happen.
HA-HOA HAMANO: I'm reminded of the scene in Apollo 13 where they dump the toolbox out, and that's what you do when go from a place like NASA to the Department of Education, federal student aid. And I think the one thing that I take away from that is that how folks in our industries and some niche places, like public media, like NASA, that everyone, every part of the process is this special snowflake, and only people can publish a website this way because it's science data and it's all of these-- space exploration or it's public media, and it's audio.
HA-HOA HAMANO: But at the end of the day, when people like us who have been at different places, that there are patterns to using the wrench and sometimes the wrench just has to be there to fix the website. I don't know. But those are the gives and takes in switching in and out of very different industries, for me.
PENNY LADKIN-BRAND: I think when I first joined Future, we were making some profit, but we weren't actually generating net positive cash flow. And there was a real luxury from that, in that when the certain path is extinction, actually, it gives you a very different appetite for risk, which is a really useful learning, because learning when to judge what is your risk appetite should be for various scenarios is a really helpful skill set.
PENNY LADKIN-BRAND: And so I think there's a lot to be said from continuity and mastery, but I think also learning to think from first principles so that you don't just do what one's always done, but actually approach the problem from actually first principle thought and with a certain sort of risk appetite to the level of change that's required, then it can offer a lot of benefit. So I don't think you need to necessarily move around to get that, but that kind of learning environment and appropriate kind of risk appetite to the scenario is definitely important.
DAVID NYGREN: And when you do move around, I think we all learn quickly not to use that line. When I was at previous employer, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. There's no better way to turn people off than when you do that. So, Penny, a question for you. You're leading one of the largest publishers in this industry, in an industry that's often described as slow moving. You've probably discovered that by now.
DAVID NYGREN: Do you think that that caution that this industry has is a weakness that we need to shed, or is it a source of strength in some way, or maybe a mix of both?
PENNY LADKIN-BRAND: I think just building on that point about the risk appetite, I think the caution has served us phenomenally well because it has helped to preserve the integrity of the scholarly record over hundreds of years, and that's super important. And I think we also need to mirror the environment and the ecosystem in which we operate. And so when you're part of an academic community who aren't moving fast, then actually it's really important to mirror that.
PENNY LADKIN-BRAND: I think now we're in an ecosystem with other players. And so we also need to mirror the pace of change of those other players because you need to be running in the same race, right? And so we need to address some of the challenges that we've talked about today about disintermediation of research, about trust, integrity of research, about actually embracing the opportunity that AI offers us to actually apply knowledge to real problems, which is a phenomenal kind of opportunity.
PENNY LADKIN-BRAND: So I think we need to maintain the continuity and the caution where it matters, and we also need to change pace.
HA-HOA HAMANO: Yeah, I love that. There is something that someone shared with me. So a lot of the work that I've been doing is like modernization and transformation. Lots of old systems in public media and in federal government, and so everything needs to be modernized. But I think one of the things that when coming in with a more empathetic look at it and in terms of mirroring the pace of change has been meet them where they are, but don't leave them there.
HA-HOA HAMANO: They've been in this industry forever and they know exactly where this should go. And so to really sit and listen and hear what the changes should be and then apply the things from when I was at NASA-- you don't have to say, when I was at Nasa, but just to listen to oh, that problem is this shape of a problem. So I've seen that before.
HA-HOA HAMANO: Maybe let's try this.
DAVID NYGREN: I think you can be forgiven for saying "when I was at NASA," because there's no cooler--
PENNY LADKIN-BRAND: I think I might borrow it.
DAVID NYGREN: Kelly, I've got a question for you. We haven't talked much about disruption in this room today. Just joking. When you were at TELUS Digital, really big technology organization, probably in a continual state of disruption, I can imagine. So when you look at the way disruption hits different organizations, with your focus on organizational strategy, what is the first thing to break in organizations or industries like this one when disruption hits, whether it's from AI or something else?
DAVID NYGREN: And when organizations come through disruption successfully, what is it that differentiates them?
KELLI PALMER: So let's talk about the breaking piece. When disruption comes, I think you have an immediate understanding of who has a growth mindset in the landscape. Because people who respond to disruption with stop, no, don't, can't, they get stuck in a place. They may even be right. Let me be clear, I know who I'm talking to. You are the upholders of academic credibility.
KELLI PALMER: Part of the work is to know what should get through and what shouldn't, and to be judicious about it. And when something new comes along, like AI, waiting to see what happens to everyone else can be a really big death nail in a coffin. And so I'm going to shift to what I've seen works, the change curve. Kubler-Ross, for those of you who are big geeks. Oh, I love when people nod.
KELLI PALMER: When I say names of things. I feel like I'm at home right now. So Kubler-Ross and the change curve, you know, this deal, with depression down here and all the energy up here, it hits in every environment and it hits in variable ways. So what I've seen be successful is when organizations that have a propensity towards evolutionary practice support, incentivize, and lean into those humans who are on the leading edge of the change curve.
KELLI PALMER: Not that they drag everyone else kicking and screaming from the outset. That's not the highest and best use of time right now. The highest and best use of time is the person who's chosen to get the clot or do the thing, or whatever it is that's new and hot and cool right now, give them time, give them space, give them support. Hold them up. Expose other people to them.
KELLI PALMER: Make the disease catching, if it's working. Evaluate it. Don't penalize them if it doesn't work really well at the outset, and make an example of what it means to innovate, and then move from there. I'm not saying all the things you get out of that are positive and productive, but you start to create an ecosystem that is fertile for the possibility of a thing.
KELLI PALMER: And in all of the versions, and we were assumed four times and assumed nine things, when I was in the mergers and acquisition seat, I knew you were going to be OK based on whether you supported failing fast, trying hard, and learning from those mistakes and moving forward to experiment again.
DAVID NYGREN: That's good.
HA-HOA HAMANO: I will add that, to record that and be transparent about it, I think there's the feels like, yay, we failed, or yay, we succeeded. But I think being transparent and open about it is also where I've seen good change happen.
KELLI PALMER: And in the tech environment, we do really ridiculous things with failure. We have a failure award. You can win at failing. That's a place to look. It seems really strange, but sometimes, to use the academic publishing space, particularly the sciences, an experiment not working can be as telling as one that comes through, right?
DAVID NYGREN: Penny, surprise question. Any-- taking that guidance, any lessons you see for our industry, since you're familiar with them?
PENNY LADKIN-BRAND: I definitely think that embracing testing and it being OK to fail, certainly when we talk about technology platforms, I think that's where we have a sort of super low risk appetite. And so whereas actually running the smoke test to see whether there's appetite or consumer demand for something is really important. And so being OK with this is a test, it might work or it might not. That's definitely where I see more encouragement would be great.
DAVID NYGREN: So Ha-Hoa, you've worked on a lot of projects that focus on public participation, like the citizen science work that you did at NASA, which we could probably spend a whole session talking about. So you were focused on a very broad audience, a diverse audience, needing to bring people in, account for multiple needs, very similar to this industry that's very global, very diverse. You're talking about people working in multiple sectors, different stages of career development, different disciplines with different points of view.
DAVID NYGREN: What might be some of the takeaways that you've learned from this?
HA-HOA HAMANO: Yeah, I think the first one is to be human-centered. I think the most successful places in disruption is to look at the human at the center of that change and disruption. And so I think that was where I was able to really laser focus into I'm at NASA, it's gigantic. It's a marketing machine. The eclipse is something that just happened, like in 2017. And so they had already had-- like, they can just print out an engagement strategy, just press the button and you're engaged.
HA-HOA HAMANO: And so for me, with citizen science, first it was coming in with a theory of change, and so in that change to be a human change, behavioral change. And so it was this room, science literacy. It was media literacy equals public and civic engagement to a stronger democracy. That was my theory of change. And so I wasn't going to make a better website. I wasn't going to be able to make a better pamphlet.
HA-HOA HAMANO: I was never going to outmarket NASA. But what I could do was really pinpoint a niche that I was going to, and citizen science is certainly is a niche, especially citizen science and heliophysics. And so one of the niche audiences there was ham radio. Anyone here a ham radio user? So when you use ham radio, the radio signals can go globally. It can go down the street to your other ham radio hobbyists.
HA-HOA HAMANO: I'm not going to misgender any of them. But when there is a strong solar storm, that pushes the ionosphere down, and so then it could disrupt communications and that will tell you-- that gives you data points to know how solar storms are going to affect communication on Earth. And so I went out to ham radio folks. There's already a citizen science project on it. But really talk to folks who weren't in the know with ham radios.
HA-HOA HAMANO: No surprise, very similar to other audiences that are missed. It was skewed male, was rural, and all these other things. So then I always in any of these scenarios, whether it's Nasa or NPR or federal student aid, it's like, so who are we missing out of that? And so for me, I went and looked women who were involved in ham radio and really talked to them and tried to get to the human problem to be solved there.
HA-HOA HAMANO: There was another organization called OMIK, which was like black radio, ham radio users, which started using them along highways to know which rest stops were safe when they were traveling, and so was able to speak at their membership meeting and talk to a woman there. And so to really get to a node and a nugget of niche audience that is being left out, because I think as we all know, when we go abroad and we try and serve everyone, you're serving no one.
HA-HOA HAMANO: And so I think that was something that I could learn when I worked at scale to actually go, go the opposite direction and go and try and find a niche. Because when you solve that problem, you actually solve a bunch of problems at scale.
DAVID NYGREN: From what you know of this industry, any lessons there that can be specifically--
HA-HOA HAMANO: Yeah, I mean, I think it's like from what I've seen, the diversity of subjects that are being covered, it's like find unlikely partners and unlikely audiences. Just dust off your cover. If you know everybody is a Big Ten school that has seven research institutions in it, what's the eighth institution and what do they look like? And then try and model around there and really, really get to the meat of like a person anytime someone's like, we're doing this project and it's going to solve this.
HA-HOA HAMANO: It's like, name me a person. I want a real person that said the words that I need this problem solved, and that's how then you start to experiment and that's how you start to prioritize. And some of them aren't even risks, right? Just do a thing. Like, do the thing you're doing. Just do it for them.
HA-HOA HAMANO: And then as you grow, then you can do things and take risks. But sometimes it's not that risky. It's just like seeing it from a human's standpoint.
DAVID NYGREN: I'm thinking about bringing ham radio operators into the editorial workflow process.
HA-HOA HAMANO: Absolutely.
DAVID NYGREN: Disrupt AI. [LAUGHTER] So let's talk about potentially an uncomfortable topic for some folks in the room, consolidation. It's already been brought up. So previously, years ago, scholarly publishing went through a couple of phases of consolidation, driven by technology, driven by changes in business models. So it was either mergers and acquisitions happening or it was society publishers needing to form publishing partnerships with large commercial publishers in order to remain viable and sustainable.
DAVID NYGREN: When you look at what has happened with consolidation in other industries, what might be some of the lessons that we can take away for this industry?
KELLI PALMER: Pick me, choose me. I have so many thoughts about this. I think the key one is everyone is best-served when all parties are absolutely honest and transparent about what they want to get from the transaction. And you think that sometimes happening in the process of the transaction, you think, they have the platforms and reach and we have the audience or whatever it is, and you feel like that's the magical thing that's going to happen.
KELLI PALMER: Yes. And there needs to be more nakedness about it. And I think without it, you end up having a collision of invisible priorities for the transaction that usually lead to what I think of as the vulture moment, whether an organization is getting torn apart by a vulture or an organization is the vulture tearing an organization apart.
KELLI PALMER: And it is because of that lack of clarity. I think if the clarity is there, truly, truly, from the outset, then you can evaluate and create partnerships that have mutual benefit. But at the end of the day, there's a reason that 80% of mergers and acquisitions fail. 80% of mergers and acquisitions fail. Like, let's just rest with that. And so if there's any desire to preserve, what is it that you want to preserve, and can you lead with that?
KELLI PALMER: Can you negotiate the deal around that? If there's something that you're willing to give as the purchaser, if there's space you're willing to create to be able to add that market share or whatever the deal is, can you lead with that? Because when anybody obfuscates, you get a bad match and everybody loses.
DAVID NYGREN: Ha-Hoa.
HA-HOA HAMANO: I was going to [INAUDIBLE].
PENNY LADKIN-BRAND: Sure So I think one of the things that we all need to ask ourselves is, what are we for? Because it's really important to think about, this is what we do rather than actually why do we exist and what are we here for. And so I think making sure that we're really clear about that and then determining the decisions is important. So we've always thought at T&F, like, we're a publisher of books and journals.
PENNY LADKIN-BRAND: Well actually that's what we do, whereas actually what we've tried to do is reframe, well, we're here to amplify the voices of the creators of research and connect them with the consumers of knowledge, which just then helps determine the path. And so fundamentally, I think it's a really good thing to have a diversity of publishers and societies that's beneficial to research. But we've got an environment where there is an algorithmic effect.
PENNY LADKIN-BRAND: And so scale matters at the point of consumption. And so what we want to ensure that there is strength through partnerships and to make sure that we're able to continue to serve that purpose, even if it evolves through time, but that we're leaning into a sort of a hungry ecosystem where discovery happens. And so I don't know that-- I agree, certainly, I think we bought like 32 different businesses, kind of, and everyone's different and they're quite challenging, definitely on a human scale.
PENNY LADKIN-BRAND: And so I think in this environment, there's a different model. So certainly at Informa and T&F, we do a lot of partnerships. And I think there is an opportunity for more marketplace type models, where we can get the benefit of shared collective investment and shared scale into the face of some very hungry ecosystems, but through a different path.
DAVID NYGREN: So, Kelli, one scenario that probably a lot of small societies are dealing with is they're seeing what's happening with AI and all the changes in technology. They can partner selectively, but there's also sometimes a need and a temptation to partner with a big publisher like Penny's. So when you think about having been both a gobbler and one who has been gobbled up in the past, any strategies for evaluating when it makes sense to partner, or when it makes sense to remain independent and maybe not be as fully optimized, but to get the value out of that independence?
DAVID NYGREN:
KELLI PALMER: Every interaction is a data point. Every email, every phone call, every meeting, every agenda, every document shared, the choice of who the attorneys are, how those people act, the finance folks, is a data point. Be very attuned to every single data point, because you are learning what it is going to be as it is happening.
KELLI PALMER: And all of those things are very telling. And often, we want to be our most generous selves, or perhaps our most judgmental selves, or some very skewed self. Try very hard to be your most accurate self, because what the future is being revealed to you in that moment.
DAVID NYGREN: Good advice in a variety of scenarios, probably. Now is the time when I tell you to think of questions that you might want to ask, so final question for all three of you. And there are actually two questions, and you could pick one. Or you can take both, if you want to. So what is one thing that you've seen working in another industry that might be applied to scholarly publishing in some beneficial way, or the magic wand question.
DAVID NYGREN: If you had a magic wand and you can change any one thing about this industry in particular, what would it be? Penny, why don't we start with you?
PENNY LADKIN-BRAND: So I think the magic wand would be rethinking the operations to take advantage of the intelligent technology that exists now. So I think we digitized historic workflows rather than thinking about what is possible. And so rethinking that to leverage intelligent technology to remove all the friction. that's what I'd like to do.
HA-HOA HAMANO: Go with you.
KELLI PALMER: I was going to build on something that you said. You talked about interesting partners. I love the part, the music award shows where the country singer and the heavy metal person end up together and doing a thing. There's something there.
HA-HOA HAMANO: Yeah.
KELLI PALMER: There's something in that for all of us, no matter what industry we reside in. And so I don't have a clear road to an answer for you, but I felt inspired by what you said because it's in those unexpected collapse.
HA-HOA HAMANO: That's right. Yeah, and that's where innovation happens. Like, it's the challenge to break your mold, but also make it work together. I think my piece was similar in terms of each of us has something unique to share. You've existed, you've been around for a long time. And there is the tendency to do things the way it's been done a long time because there's been success. But the previous panel talked about a super challenging environment we're in for researchers and publishing and accurate knowledge, and fighting a really uphill battle.
HA-HOA HAMANO: And so I just want to leave it as it is the challenge of everyone in this room to succeed, because our democracy depends on it. And so I think-- and I have faith in this lovely room and the energy in this room, that it's going to happen because you're asking all the right questions, and so to also just lean on see what you can challenge yourself to move forward and modernize and do well, because it's super necessary.
DAVID NYGREN: Indeed. All right. Does anybody have any questions? David?
AUDIENCE: Thanks for the presentation. David Sampson, NEJM group. So we have in our organization a talent problem, in that we have some pretty big aspirations for new transformative business opportunity. But we don't have the talent within the organization, and it's really difficult to recruit talent from outside the organization because these people can go anywhere. They can work for an Anthropic or an OpenAI.
AUDIENCE: And mission is not enough. Yeah, we have a great mission. But when it comes down to actual upside and compensation, we can't offer that. And the other challenge we have is speed. You mentioned something about matching the pace of other players. And our organization has been a traditional publisher. We have layers of decision making.
AUDIENCE: We're slow. And what we have heard from some people who have expressed an interest in working with us, they've said, if you're too slow and you have the wrong governance structure, too many layers of approval, you'll just suffocate me. And I don't want to work for an organization like that. So I don't know if you have any thoughts or solutions to address that talent challenge.
KELLI PALMER: Go back out there and try again, because the tech world is hemorrhaging talent. And it's not only hemorrhaging talent. If you look at the layoff volume that's happening right now, it's also the lifestyle challenge. So it used to be all trampolines and snacks and beer, matching swag. Oh, it was so good.
KELLI PALMER: And now it is nah, homie, you make $160,000 a year. You need to work on this until it's done. And I don't care if it takes all night. And I don't care about your kids. And so don't underestimate the power of your value proposition today by looking at it through yesterday's lenses. It's a new landscape. People are having trouble landing roles, and they are wanting to live lives.
KELLI PALMER: And so there is a kind of compromise. And I don't mean that as in compromise, I mean that as in compromise that people are more willing to make right now. Go back.
HA-HOA HAMANO: Yeah I can't snaps to that enough because I've been on both, as a mentor for folks trying to get into the industry, as well as on hiring reviews, literally second day at the office had to go through 400 product manager resumes. And so every time we open any kind of tech-related position, we get flooded because it is the compromise to seeing-- being in the federal government, seeing what tech workers had to go through, seeing what federal government workers had gone through in the past couple of years, still wanting to show up for work for the mission.
HA-HOA HAMANO: And so I think in addition to going back out there, being creative about your value prop, I think telework, remote, coffee. We have to bring-- anyone else here a federal employee? You have to bring your own K-cups to the office. So if you have, get a box of Costco K-cups. That's a bonus for you. There's just a lot of knowing that profile of who you want to bring in, people who are hungry, who are willing to work, who are mission-- like, don't give up on the mission.
HA-HOA HAMANO: Obviously, they have to be mission-driven to want to be patient with how slow the pace is and be curious about which parts of that can be sped up. I think-- look, I've been in government and I've been in radio, right? Like, I know slow and you can still-- I always say move slow to move fast. There's momentum in keeping those people there and recruiting the right people that will get you to faster, if it's appropriate.
KELLI PALMER: One more add to that. May I make the add to that? The one more add to that is, and don't be afraid to think creatively about the geo mix of your employees. That is that is not always a popular thing to say, but let me be clear. If you need to increase the compensation for the decision makers and the strategists within your business, think about offshoring and nearshoring some of the technical first level capabilities that enable that top level decision making and creativity.
KELLI PALMER: It is certainly where all the competitors are going outside of this industry, and so that is what's allowing the people around you to move as fast as they're moving. They have teams of 40 people doing a thing that we have one person doing at half the price.
DAVID NYGREN: All right. Probably time for one more question. If none, Penny, Ha-Hoa, Kelli, thank you very much for being here today. I know you all have clearly lots of things to do, and you didn't have to be here, so we really appreciate it. Thank you. [APPLAUSE]
Segment:0 .
DAVID NYGREN: All right. Welcome back, everybody. I'm David Nygren, Chief Business Development Officer at Silverchair. Before I introduce our panelists I want to test a hypothesis of mine. Scientific poll. Please raise your hand if you've worked outside of scholarly publishing at some point within the past five years.
DAVID NYGREN: Not bad. Right? Past 10 years? A few more. Past 26 years? All right, so proving the point, I think, everybody knows, not a novel finding. This room, and really, this industry is filled with people who have been in this industry for a long time.
DAVID NYGREN: It's very common for people to spend their entire careers in this industry, sometimes at one publisher, sometimes at one journal. That is not the case for my fellow panelists here, who have delightfully diverse experience across not only organizations, but across industries. So sitting next to me is Penny Ladkin-Brand, the CEO of Taylor and Francis since 2004. This is her first foray into this industry-- sorry 2024, three years, two years.
DAVID NYGREN: She has previously worked at-- you should introduce. Why don't you introduce yourself, rather than have me stumbling through it?
PENNY LADKIN-BRAND: Yeah. You were doing a great job. So I'm a CFO by background. So this is my first stint in the CEO hot seat. And change and disruption have been the enduring threads throughout my career. So I was formerly at Future, a consumer media business, and before that I was at Auto Trader, which was at the time a weekly print classifieds magazine and a digital marketplace.
PENNY LADKIN-BRAND: And before that I was in audit and M&A advisory. So lots of change and disruption throughout my career.
DAVID NYGREN: Ha-Hoa.
HA-HOA HAMANO: I'm Ha-Hoa Hamano. I am local to GC. I was recently a Principal Product Manager at the Department of Education, federal student aid. No, I can't forgive your loans. I'm so sorry. But I am here speaking on my personal behalf. I was formerly at Nasa, and then formerly NPR, and so also just really excited to have sat on the last panel about where the future is going for publishing.
HA-HOA HAMANO: And, yeah, excited to be here.
KELLI PALMER: Are you sure you can't forgive my student loans?
HA-HOA HAMANO: I'm so sorry.
KELLI PALMER: I have a lot of degrees. Kelli Palmer I am currently the Fractional Chief Operating officer for Averett University in Danville, Virginia. My background is that I've been in higher education at the University of Virginia in the President's Office. I've been at CFA Institute, the Chartered Financial Analyst institute, which is investment management, has an academic component, has a publishing component, but also services the investment management industry.
KELLI PALMER: Then I was at-- well, I was at Willow Tree, which is a tech company that made apps and websites, and that organization got acquired by Telus, which is the telco of Canada. And so I ended up leading people operations for them and doing things around the M&A space as we progressively got consumed and consumed other businesses. And then I took a break, and that's how we got here.
DAVID NYGREN: Great so you've each moved around a lot, a of industries, a lot of organizations. What has all of that moving around, what has that moving around taught you, and what has it given you that you don't get, that one doesn't get by staying in one industry, in one place? And what do you think, what lessons are there for our industry there?
KELLI PALMER: I think having a variety of workplaces and a variety of roles, which I've had in all of those workplaces, they varied tremendously, gives you this interesting toolbox, if you use that metaphor. And I've got, like, a wrench and a screwdriver and a drill and a hammer and all these sorts of things. And when you change industry environments, I found that the wrench is still handy. It just may not be for the thing that you used the wrench for in the last environment.
KELLI PALMER: Does that follow? So I've gotten really good at looking down into my toolbox and going, I've got a solution for this, and then figuring out what to do from there. And so that leads to this out of the box thinking, this creativity when approaching a problem that can be deeply annoying to the people who've been in that environment long term, and also inspires just enough difference, on occasion, to allow for the breakthrough thing to happen.
HA-HOA HAMANO: I'm reminded of the scene in Apollo 13 where they dump the toolbox out, and that's what you do when go from a place like NASA to the Department of Education, federal student aid. And I think the one thing that I take away from that is that how folks in our industries and some niche places, like public media, like NASA, that everyone, every part of the process is this special snowflake, and only people can publish a website this way because it's science data and it's all of these-- space exploration or it's public media, and it's audio.
HA-HOA HAMANO: But at the end of the day, when people like us who have been at different places, that there are patterns to using the wrench and sometimes the wrench just has to be there to fix the website. I don't know. But those are the gives and takes in switching in and out of very different industries, for me.
PENNY LADKIN-BRAND: I think when I first joined Future, we were making some profit, but we weren't actually generating net positive cash flow. And there was a real luxury from that, in that when the certain path is extinction, actually, it gives you a very different appetite for risk, which is a really useful learning, because learning when to judge what is your risk appetite should be for various scenarios is a really helpful skill set.
PENNY LADKIN-BRAND: And so I think there's a lot to be said from continuity and mastery, but I think also learning to think from first principles so that you don't just do what one's always done, but actually approach the problem from actually first principle thought and with a certain sort of risk appetite to the level of change that's required, then it can offer a lot of benefit. So I don't think you need to necessarily move around to get that, but that kind of learning environment and appropriate kind of risk appetite to the scenario is definitely important.
DAVID NYGREN: And when you do move around, I think we all learn quickly not to use that line. When I was at previous employer, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. There's no better way to turn people off than when you do that. So, Penny, a question for you. You're leading one of the largest publishers in this industry, in an industry that's often described as slow moving. You've probably discovered that by now.
DAVID NYGREN: Do you think that that caution that this industry has is a weakness that we need to shed, or is it a source of strength in some way, or maybe a mix of both?
PENNY LADKIN-BRAND: I think just building on that point about the risk appetite, I think the caution has served us phenomenally well because it has helped to preserve the integrity of the scholarly record over hundreds of years, and that's super important. And I think we also need to mirror the environment and the ecosystem in which we operate. And so when you're part of an academic community who aren't moving fast, then actually it's really important to mirror that.
PENNY LADKIN-BRAND: I think now we're in an ecosystem with other players. And so we also need to mirror the pace of change of those other players because you need to be running in the same race, right? And so we need to address some of the challenges that we've talked about today about disintermediation of research, about trust, integrity of research, about actually embracing the opportunity that AI offers us to actually apply knowledge to real problems, which is a phenomenal kind of opportunity.
PENNY LADKIN-BRAND: So I think we need to maintain the continuity and the caution where it matters, and we also need to change pace.
HA-HOA HAMANO: Yeah, I love that. There is something that someone shared with me. So a lot of the work that I've been doing is like modernization and transformation. Lots of old systems in public media and in federal government, and so everything needs to be modernized. But I think one of the things that when coming in with a more empathetic look at it and in terms of mirroring the pace of change has been meet them where they are, but don't leave them there.
HA-HOA HAMANO: They've been in this industry forever and they know exactly where this should go. And so to really sit and listen and hear what the changes should be and then apply the things from when I was at NASA-- you don't have to say, when I was at Nasa, but just to listen to oh, that problem is this shape of a problem. So I've seen that before.
HA-HOA HAMANO: Maybe let's try this.
DAVID NYGREN: I think you can be forgiven for saying "when I was at NASA," because there's no cooler--
PENNY LADKIN-BRAND: I think I might borrow it.
DAVID NYGREN: Kelly, I've got a question for you. We haven't talked much about disruption in this room today. Just joking. When you were at TELUS Digital, really big technology organization, probably in a continual state of disruption, I can imagine. So when you look at the way disruption hits different organizations, with your focus on organizational strategy, what is the first thing to break in organizations or industries like this one when disruption hits, whether it's from AI or something else?
DAVID NYGREN: And when organizations come through disruption successfully, what is it that differentiates them?
KELLI PALMER: So let's talk about the breaking piece. When disruption comes, I think you have an immediate understanding of who has a growth mindset in the landscape. Because people who respond to disruption with stop, no, don't, can't, they get stuck in a place. They may even be right. Let me be clear, I know who I'm talking to. You are the upholders of academic credibility.
KELLI PALMER: Part of the work is to know what should get through and what shouldn't, and to be judicious about it. And when something new comes along, like AI, waiting to see what happens to everyone else can be a really big death nail in a coffin. And so I'm going to shift to what I've seen works, the change curve. Kubler-Ross, for those of you who are big geeks. Oh, I love when people nod.
KELLI PALMER: When I say names of things. I feel like I'm at home right now. So Kubler-Ross and the change curve, you know, this deal, with depression down here and all the energy up here, it hits in every environment and it hits in variable ways. So what I've seen be successful is when organizations that have a propensity towards evolutionary practice support, incentivize, and lean into those humans who are on the leading edge of the change curve.
KELLI PALMER: Not that they drag everyone else kicking and screaming from the outset. That's not the highest and best use of time right now. The highest and best use of time is the person who's chosen to get the clot or do the thing, or whatever it is that's new and hot and cool right now, give them time, give them space, give them support. Hold them up. Expose other people to them.
KELLI PALMER: Make the disease catching, if it's working. Evaluate it. Don't penalize them if it doesn't work really well at the outset, and make an example of what it means to innovate, and then move from there. I'm not saying all the things you get out of that are positive and productive, but you start to create an ecosystem that is fertile for the possibility of a thing.
KELLI PALMER: And in all of the versions, and we were assumed four times and assumed nine things, when I was in the mergers and acquisition seat, I knew you were going to be OK based on whether you supported failing fast, trying hard, and learning from those mistakes and moving forward to experiment again.
DAVID NYGREN: That's good.
HA-HOA HAMANO: I will add that, to record that and be transparent about it, I think there's the feels like, yay, we failed, or yay, we succeeded. But I think being transparent and open about it is also where I've seen good change happen.
KELLI PALMER: And in the tech environment, we do really ridiculous things with failure. We have a failure award. You can win at failing. That's a place to look. It seems really strange, but sometimes, to use the academic publishing space, particularly the sciences, an experiment not working can be as telling as one that comes through, right?
DAVID NYGREN: Penny, surprise question. Any-- taking that guidance, any lessons you see for our industry, since you're familiar with them?
PENNY LADKIN-BRAND: I definitely think that embracing testing and it being OK to fail, certainly when we talk about technology platforms, I think that's where we have a sort of super low risk appetite. And so whereas actually running the smoke test to see whether there's appetite or consumer demand for something is really important. And so being OK with this is a test, it might work or it might not. That's definitely where I see more encouragement would be great.
DAVID NYGREN: So Ha-Hoa, you've worked on a lot of projects that focus on public participation, like the citizen science work that you did at NASA, which we could probably spend a whole session talking about. So you were focused on a very broad audience, a diverse audience, needing to bring people in, account for multiple needs, very similar to this industry that's very global, very diverse. You're talking about people working in multiple sectors, different stages of career development, different disciplines with different points of view.
DAVID NYGREN: What might be some of the takeaways that you've learned from this?
HA-HOA HAMANO: Yeah, I think the first one is to be human-centered. I think the most successful places in disruption is to look at the human at the center of that change and disruption. And so I think that was where I was able to really laser focus into I'm at NASA, it's gigantic. It's a marketing machine. The eclipse is something that just happened, like in 2017. And so they had already had-- like, they can just print out an engagement strategy, just press the button and you're engaged.
HA-HOA HAMANO: And so for me, with citizen science, first it was coming in with a theory of change, and so in that change to be a human change, behavioral change. And so it was this room, science literacy. It was media literacy equals public and civic engagement to a stronger democracy. That was my theory of change. And so I wasn't going to make a better website. I wasn't going to be able to make a better pamphlet.
HA-HOA HAMANO: I was never going to outmarket NASA. But what I could do was really pinpoint a niche that I was going to, and citizen science is certainly is a niche, especially citizen science and heliophysics. And so one of the niche audiences there was ham radio. Anyone here a ham radio user? So when you use ham radio, the radio signals can go globally. It can go down the street to your other ham radio hobbyists.
HA-HOA HAMANO: I'm not going to misgender any of them. But when there is a strong solar storm, that pushes the ionosphere down, and so then it could disrupt communications and that will tell you-- that gives you data points to know how solar storms are going to affect communication on Earth. And so I went out to ham radio folks. There's already a citizen science project on it. But really talk to folks who weren't in the know with ham radios.
HA-HOA HAMANO: No surprise, very similar to other audiences that are missed. It was skewed male, was rural, and all these other things. So then I always in any of these scenarios, whether it's Nasa or NPR or federal student aid, it's like, so who are we missing out of that? And so for me, I went and looked women who were involved in ham radio and really talked to them and tried to get to the human problem to be solved there.
HA-HOA HAMANO: There was another organization called OMIK, which was like black radio, ham radio users, which started using them along highways to know which rest stops were safe when they were traveling, and so was able to speak at their membership meeting and talk to a woman there. And so to really get to a node and a nugget of niche audience that is being left out, because I think as we all know, when we go abroad and we try and serve everyone, you're serving no one.
HA-HOA HAMANO: And so I think that was something that I could learn when I worked at scale to actually go, go the opposite direction and go and try and find a niche. Because when you solve that problem, you actually solve a bunch of problems at scale.
DAVID NYGREN: From what you know of this industry, any lessons there that can be specifically--
HA-HOA HAMANO: Yeah, I mean, I think it's like from what I've seen, the diversity of subjects that are being covered, it's like find unlikely partners and unlikely audiences. Just dust off your cover. If you know everybody is a Big Ten school that has seven research institutions in it, what's the eighth institution and what do they look like? And then try and model around there and really, really get to the meat of like a person anytime someone's like, we're doing this project and it's going to solve this.
HA-HOA HAMANO: It's like, name me a person. I want a real person that said the words that I need this problem solved, and that's how then you start to experiment and that's how you start to prioritize. And some of them aren't even risks, right? Just do a thing. Like, do the thing you're doing. Just do it for them.
HA-HOA HAMANO: And then as you grow, then you can do things and take risks. But sometimes it's not that risky. It's just like seeing it from a human's standpoint.
DAVID NYGREN: I'm thinking about bringing ham radio operators into the editorial workflow process.
HA-HOA HAMANO: Absolutely.
DAVID NYGREN: Disrupt AI. [LAUGHTER] So let's talk about potentially an uncomfortable topic for some folks in the room, consolidation. It's already been brought up. So previously, years ago, scholarly publishing went through a couple of phases of consolidation, driven by technology, driven by changes in business models. So it was either mergers and acquisitions happening or it was society publishers needing to form publishing partnerships with large commercial publishers in order to remain viable and sustainable.
DAVID NYGREN: When you look at what has happened with consolidation in other industries, what might be some of the lessons that we can take away for this industry?
KELLI PALMER: Pick me, choose me. I have so many thoughts about this. I think the key one is everyone is best-served when all parties are absolutely honest and transparent about what they want to get from the transaction. And you think that sometimes happening in the process of the transaction, you think, they have the platforms and reach and we have the audience or whatever it is, and you feel like that's the magical thing that's going to happen.
KELLI PALMER: Yes. And there needs to be more nakedness about it. And I think without it, you end up having a collision of invisible priorities for the transaction that usually lead to what I think of as the vulture moment, whether an organization is getting torn apart by a vulture or an organization is the vulture tearing an organization apart.
KELLI PALMER: And it is because of that lack of clarity. I think if the clarity is there, truly, truly, from the outset, then you can evaluate and create partnerships that have mutual benefit. But at the end of the day, there's a reason that 80% of mergers and acquisitions fail. 80% of mergers and acquisitions fail. Like, let's just rest with that. And so if there's any desire to preserve, what is it that you want to preserve, and can you lead with that?
KELLI PALMER: Can you negotiate the deal around that? If there's something that you're willing to give as the purchaser, if there's space you're willing to create to be able to add that market share or whatever the deal is, can you lead with that? Because when anybody obfuscates, you get a bad match and everybody loses.
DAVID NYGREN: Ha-Hoa.
HA-HOA HAMANO: I was going to [INAUDIBLE].
PENNY LADKIN-BRAND: Sure So I think one of the things that we all need to ask ourselves is, what are we for? Because it's really important to think about, this is what we do rather than actually why do we exist and what are we here for. And so I think making sure that we're really clear about that and then determining the decisions is important. So we've always thought at T&F, like, we're a publisher of books and journals.
PENNY LADKIN-BRAND: Well actually that's what we do, whereas actually what we've tried to do is reframe, well, we're here to amplify the voices of the creators of research and connect them with the consumers of knowledge, which just then helps determine the path. And so fundamentally, I think it's a really good thing to have a diversity of publishers and societies that's beneficial to research. But we've got an environment where there is an algorithmic effect.
PENNY LADKIN-BRAND: And so scale matters at the point of consumption. And so what we want to ensure that there is strength through partnerships and to make sure that we're able to continue to serve that purpose, even if it evolves through time, but that we're leaning into a sort of a hungry ecosystem where discovery happens. And so I don't know that-- I agree, certainly, I think we bought like 32 different businesses, kind of, and everyone's different and they're quite challenging, definitely on a human scale.
PENNY LADKIN-BRAND: And so I think in this environment, there's a different model. So certainly at Informa and T&F, we do a lot of partnerships. And I think there is an opportunity for more marketplace type models, where we can get the benefit of shared collective investment and shared scale into the face of some very hungry ecosystems, but through a different path.
DAVID NYGREN: So, Kelli, one scenario that probably a lot of small societies are dealing with is they're seeing what's happening with AI and all the changes in technology. They can partner selectively, but there's also sometimes a need and a temptation to partner with a big publisher like Penny's. So when you think about having been both a gobbler and one who has been gobbled up in the past, any strategies for evaluating when it makes sense to partner, or when it makes sense to remain independent and maybe not be as fully optimized, but to get the value out of that independence?
DAVID NYGREN:
KELLI PALMER: Every interaction is a data point. Every email, every phone call, every meeting, every agenda, every document shared, the choice of who the attorneys are, how those people act, the finance folks, is a data point. Be very attuned to every single data point, because you are learning what it is going to be as it is happening.
KELLI PALMER: And all of those things are very telling. And often, we want to be our most generous selves, or perhaps our most judgmental selves, or some very skewed self. Try very hard to be your most accurate self, because what the future is being revealed to you in that moment.
DAVID NYGREN: Good advice in a variety of scenarios, probably. Now is the time when I tell you to think of questions that you might want to ask, so final question for all three of you. And there are actually two questions, and you could pick one. Or you can take both, if you want to. So what is one thing that you've seen working in another industry that might be applied to scholarly publishing in some beneficial way, or the magic wand question.
DAVID NYGREN: If you had a magic wand and you can change any one thing about this industry in particular, what would it be? Penny, why don't we start with you?
PENNY LADKIN-BRAND: So I think the magic wand would be rethinking the operations to take advantage of the intelligent technology that exists now. So I think we digitized historic workflows rather than thinking about what is possible. And so rethinking that to leverage intelligent technology to remove all the friction. that's what I'd like to do.
HA-HOA HAMANO: Go with you.
KELLI PALMER: I was going to build on something that you said. You talked about interesting partners. I love the part, the music award shows where the country singer and the heavy metal person end up together and doing a thing. There's something there.
HA-HOA HAMANO: Yeah.
KELLI PALMER: There's something in that for all of us, no matter what industry we reside in. And so I don't have a clear road to an answer for you, but I felt inspired by what you said because it's in those unexpected collapse.
HA-HOA HAMANO: That's right. Yeah, and that's where innovation happens. Like, it's the challenge to break your mold, but also make it work together. I think my piece was similar in terms of each of us has something unique to share. You've existed, you've been around for a long time. And there is the tendency to do things the way it's been done a long time because there's been success. But the previous panel talked about a super challenging environment we're in for researchers and publishing and accurate knowledge, and fighting a really uphill battle.
HA-HOA HAMANO: And so I just want to leave it as it is the challenge of everyone in this room to succeed, because our democracy depends on it. And so I think-- and I have faith in this lovely room and the energy in this room, that it's going to happen because you're asking all the right questions, and so to also just lean on see what you can challenge yourself to move forward and modernize and do well, because it's super necessary.
DAVID NYGREN: Indeed. All right. Does anybody have any questions? David?
AUDIENCE: Thanks for the presentation. David Sampson, NEJM group. So we have in our organization a talent problem, in that we have some pretty big aspirations for new transformative business opportunity. But we don't have the talent within the organization, and it's really difficult to recruit talent from outside the organization because these people can go anywhere. They can work for an Anthropic or an OpenAI.
AUDIENCE: And mission is not enough. Yeah, we have a great mission. But when it comes down to actual upside and compensation, we can't offer that. And the other challenge we have is speed. You mentioned something about matching the pace of other players. And our organization has been a traditional publisher. We have layers of decision making.
AUDIENCE: We're slow. And what we have heard from some people who have expressed an interest in working with us, they've said, if you're too slow and you have the wrong governance structure, too many layers of approval, you'll just suffocate me. And I don't want to work for an organization like that. So I don't know if you have any thoughts or solutions to address that talent challenge.
KELLI PALMER: Go back out there and try again, because the tech world is hemorrhaging talent. And it's not only hemorrhaging talent. If you look at the layoff volume that's happening right now, it's also the lifestyle challenge. So it used to be all trampolines and snacks and beer, matching swag. Oh, it was so good.
KELLI PALMER: And now it is nah, homie, you make $160,000 a year. You need to work on this until it's done. And I don't care if it takes all night. And I don't care about your kids. And so don't underestimate the power of your value proposition today by looking at it through yesterday's lenses. It's a new landscape. People are having trouble landing roles, and they are wanting to live lives.
KELLI PALMER: And so there is a kind of compromise. And I don't mean that as in compromise, I mean that as in compromise that people are more willing to make right now. Go back.
HA-HOA HAMANO: Yeah I can't snaps to that enough because I've been on both, as a mentor for folks trying to get into the industry, as well as on hiring reviews, literally second day at the office had to go through 400 product manager resumes. And so every time we open any kind of tech-related position, we get flooded because it is the compromise to seeing-- being in the federal government, seeing what tech workers had to go through, seeing what federal government workers had gone through in the past couple of years, still wanting to show up for work for the mission.
HA-HOA HAMANO: And so I think in addition to going back out there, being creative about your value prop, I think telework, remote, coffee. We have to bring-- anyone else here a federal employee? You have to bring your own K-cups to the office. So if you have, get a box of Costco K-cups. That's a bonus for you. There's just a lot of knowing that profile of who you want to bring in, people who are hungry, who are willing to work, who are mission-- like, don't give up on the mission.
HA-HOA HAMANO: Obviously, they have to be mission-driven to want to be patient with how slow the pace is and be curious about which parts of that can be sped up. I think-- look, I've been in government and I've been in radio, right? Like, I know slow and you can still-- I always say move slow to move fast. There's momentum in keeping those people there and recruiting the right people that will get you to faster, if it's appropriate.
KELLI PALMER: One more add to that. May I make the add to that? The one more add to that is, and don't be afraid to think creatively about the geo mix of your employees. That is that is not always a popular thing to say, but let me be clear. If you need to increase the compensation for the decision makers and the strategists within your business, think about offshoring and nearshoring some of the technical first level capabilities that enable that top level decision making and creativity.
KELLI PALMER: It is certainly where all the competitors are going outside of this industry, and so that is what's allowing the people around you to move as fast as they're moving. They have teams of 40 people doing a thing that we have one person doing at half the price.
DAVID NYGREN: All right. Probably time for one more question. If none, Penny, Ha-Hoa, Kelli, thank you very much for being here today. I know you all have clearly lots of things to do, and you didn't have to be here, so we really appreciate it. Thank you. [APPLAUSE]
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