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Learn more about Amina Wadud
Amina Wadud is an American Muslim theologian. Wadud serves as Visiting Professor at Indonesian Consortium for Religious Studies and was also a visiting scholar at Starr King School for the Ministry.
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EWIC Conversations: Amina Wadud and Saadia Yacoob
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EWIC Conversations: Amina Wadud and Saadia Yacoob
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Segment:1 Introduction.
SAADIA YACOOB: [music] I also just wanted to say what an incredible honor and privilege. This is for me, this conversation, I mean, you and I go way back. You've been my mentor since I was an undergrad. And so, you know, to have this opportunity to have a conversation with you about your journey, some of which, you know, I have read about,
SAADIA YACOOB: you know, we've had conversations about, but to kind of really be able to sit and unpack it and hear from you and ask you more questions. Things that I've, you know, been intrigued by is really such an honor and privilege for me.
AMINA WADUD: So let me start with the minutes on the regime. Bismillah-ir-Rahman-ir-Rahim, I began as I always begin in the name of Allah whose grace I seek in this and all other matters. I actually want to start with the little snippet because Dr. Souad came to visit me when I took a sneak visit to see my family for the first time since the pandemic. And I asked her advice with regard to trying to get a kick start on queer Islamic studies and theology. And she said something which still resonates with me, she said, just act like it already is. And that was so profound, she said, because we just started working on the encyclopedia as if it was there, you know, there were a few people and, you know, they just would communicate on the grounds of this idea. And that was so moving because actually, this encyclopedia is one of the groundbreaking developments in the area of Islamic cultures and gender studies. So it was very nice to have her bring me forward from the place of the idea to the place where there is a great deal of substance behind it. So I am even more excited about doing this interview because I want to be a part of that important history.
SAADIA YACOOB: You know, in so many ways, for me, you are such an integral part of the history of both Islamic studies as a field, but also some feminist studies, so Qur'anic studies, so many different fields in the study of Islam. And so it's really, you know, I think, such an incredible honor and privilege for, you know, for so many of us to be able to hear your voice and your story for the work that you have been doing, you know, for so many decades now and have influenced so many generations of scholars.
Segment:2 Q1: "Where do you see the field now?".
SAADIA YACOOB: So I wanted to, you know, begin by asking you, you know, where do you see the field now? And I know you sit-in so many different fields and fields. So I, you know, kind of leave that up to you to define what you see as a field or multiple fields if you want to go in that direction. But just, you know, because you have been somebody who has been a part of this conversation for so long. I'd love to, you know, get your perspective on where do you see things now in terms of the study of islam? Quranic studies, women and gender studies in islam?
AMINA WADUD: Well, you know, when I got my master's and PHD, there was not even an institution granting a degree in Islamic studies. So my degree technically is in Near Eastern studies and Arabic because those were the two umbrella disciplines that allowed me to do the kind of research that I was interested in. And over time, you know, the development of Islamic studies as a degree in its own right started to take some root and to develop. But at a certain point for me, it was very clear, unfortunately, that the area of Muslim women's studies was not moving at the pace that I was interested in. So I literally retired from US academia 16 years ago because of, you know, the trajectory that I saw for my life. I did not see the US academy as accommodating it. Now I should say that I live in Indonesia now. And actually, I have returned to academia. And one of the reasons is because Indonesia has an interesting take on the whole notion of education and Islam. That allows for a more seamless wedding and they have progress in the area of gender studies. In fact, I met my first man who was over, you know, you know, in Islam and gender studies department. And one of the universities for a conference that I was invited to before the pandemic. So there is progress in other places in the world that I want to kind of bring some attention to when we think about the field because it was difficult for people, the languages who don't have the word gender, for example. It was difficult for them to accept it. But you know, I'm OK also with the word women's studies. But I really needed to see a dynamic meeting between Islamic studies and awareness of gender as a category. And I felt that in the context of the US we were, we were just not pushing ahead with that. So I chose to put my attention and my energy more in the field of public education and activism. It has moved. Fortunately, there are, you know, established programs that are able to deal with it, or at least to have people take a PhD and their interest is in this area. So you know, the reality that, you know, in my generation, we had to slide through whatever the old boys network was available to us. And then we had to do what we always do. The bridge called my back. We had to make a way where there wasn't a way. And when it started to turn around. And a younger scholars began to enter into the field, I think it did start to expand, and it's considered a legitimate area. And some of the problems that I remember at the time that I chose to, you know, to take early retirement was that women's studies did not have a way to embrace Islamic studies, and Islamic studies refused to embrace women's studies. And that meant that if you were doing something, you were often having to do it on the edges of two very powerful disciplines that had there. Own sort of research trajectories that did not overlap, so you had to be that bridge. And I think that now it's better, you know, even in the context of the US and that the burgeoning of really qualitative publications makes me feel more comfortable to say that even though it wasn't there when I got my degree, it is really established well so much of this for me is,
SAADIA YACOOB: you know, I can see what you're saying, that things have changed so much because for me coming in, you know, and sort of developing as a scholar in this kind of late 2000s. My experience in some ways is so different because I felt like I had a community of scholars, scholars who were mentors like you and Kecie Ali or Juliane Hammer and and you know, and others. But then also, you know, peers who I felt like I was in conversation with. And now that, you know, we're kind of moving forward, you know, starting to publish our own books, that very much feels like community. But in some ways, also a lot of what you're describing is this feeling of alienation in these different fields still resonates for me so much this way in which, you know, outside of this community of scholars who work on Islam and gender, I often find that people with, you know, in Islamic studies more broadly and still having to answer this question of why is this relevant, right? Like either gender is not relevant, as you know, as a category of analysis or gender is not relevant for the pre-modern or gender doesn't matter. Like what does it tell us? The inability to see why the study of gender actually contributes to the broader conversations in the field, right? and not just to, you know, people sort of making it into a gender thing. And also, you know, similarly, when I was in grad school taking classes in women and gender studies, the way in which I felt like people often could not engage with my work, like what I got was this kind of really odd patronizing like, I'm so glad you're doing this, but no ability to actually engage my work, you know? And so I you know that that kind of sense of alienation that you're describing, I very much resonates with me, but I'm so very grateful that, you know, all the work that you have done and others have done over the years has produced a kind of community. That there is a space where I feel a sense of belonging, where my work, you know, has interlocutors and is seen as valuable.
AMINA WADUD: I basically say there is no aspect of reform Islam or Islamic reform Islamic thought that is complete without a gender analysis so that the area of gender in Islamic studies is in fact, the most advanced. So that's the way I'm going to cover it from now on because it is we're not in all circus. We are part of the conversation and we're also part of the conversation of the way in which we interrogate the legacy. !invisible!, your work in particular. You know, you're giving a particular reading, you know, within the hanafi school, hanafi, right? Not Hannibal, they always get those two confused. I'm such an outsider. You're giving a particular reading within the hanafi school, but this is on the basis of the trajectory of the hanafi school and its own internal discourse. And all you're saying is there is perspective on that discourse that we can learn when we unpack what are the gender locators within it. So we have not only progressed the field of Islamic studies by what we call the production of new knowledge, but we've also. Brought a lens to this just wonder, as an erudite, you know, intellectual legacy, bringing out new aspects of it by making gender into a critical tool for the analysis. And I, I kind of like that. I don't know. I mean, I'm very much wedded to the traditional Islamic thought. So I don't feel that I would be complete if I started off in women and gender studies and then went back into Islam, which people do, and they do very well. It's just for me, my immersion within the Islamic intellectual tradition was always gendered. It's, you know, even if it wasn't part of the conversation, it was always gendered, and after a while I realized, oh, we need to make that part of the conversation as well.
Segment:3 Q2: "How did you come to writing your first book?".
SAADIA YACOOB: What I mean? Talking about the way in which, you know, when you first got your degree and started, you know, conceptualize over your dissertation, wrote it. And then eventually your first book, which was really so groundbreaking for the field. You know, pretty much every course I teach something from that first book or your second book that is in there because I tell people, you can't really talk about Islamic studies broadly if we're doing put on, if we're doing women gender studies, right? I mean, without, you know, thinking about your work and how much that has influenced the field. But I wanted to get a sense from you of, you know, how did you come to writing that first book and particularly, you know, conceptualizing of the seer and the reading of the Quran through a gendered lens?
AMINA WADUD: Well, the reality is I came from a place of absolute innocence. I wasn't. I wasn't making waves. I mean, I tell people again and again because it's still true. I fell in love with the Quran within the first six months that I was Muslim just by reading an English translation that today I cannot even abide. And it's set me on a path now when I look back on it because it's almost 50 years since, you know, the year it took my Chardin. Now, when I look back on it, I can see the steps all made sense. But I didn't. I didn't see the full trajectory. So I went into Quranic studies because I was in love with the Quran and I took for my master's and PhD studies at an institution, the University of Michigan, that had a very rich program in the languages of the region. Because the area studies and the language studies, literature and all that, that was the of inroads in into Islam. And I mean, I didn't I didn't try for any number of institutions. I only tried for this one institution because it was immersed, immersed in the languages of the region, not just Arabic, but also Hebrew, Persian, Turkish old manuscript reading and that kind of thing. So I felt like these were keys to unlock the mysteries of the Quran that had touched my heart. And I wanted to have as many of those keys under my belt, and as a consequence, of course, I did things like, you know, early on and understanding the whole field of fear and how that works. And yet when I would read them, I couldn't find my voice, and I was told when I got to the end of my dissertation, I kind of jumped forward because that is the first book. So in a way, it'll loop back around. But I was told that what I was doing wasn't really a dissertation because a dissertation was supposed to sort of point to a problem or an issue and then spend a lot of time talking about how those who had gone before us addressed this issue or this problem, and they didn't. So what was I going to do? And I and I wasn't I wasn't pushing for something on the grounds of knowing that it should also be there. I was only pushing from the heart that said, but this is the question. I need questions answered with regard to the Quran and the phenomena that is, woman. That's why my first book is called Quran and woman in the singular. It should be called Quran and gender. And I didn't know enough. And the was the absence of sexual stereotyping in the koran, because that was the thing that I had noticed at first. And that is that culturally, you know, I'm entering into Islam. I enter into Islam, and I'm already an adult. I'm 20 years old. And at an undergrad and at the University and studying. And you know, I continued my studies and immersed myself in Arabic from that moment forward. But I. I wanted to. Demonstrate how when I read the koran, I don't see the sex role stereotyping going on. Now it's funny because when the Quran also points to realities that exist, you know, in the culture, you know, around the time of the revelation, you know, infanticide female babies being buried alive, there are indications larger than what I was seeing that there are problems with regard to gender. But the Quran did not participate in what I call the rhetoric of othering on the basis of gender. And I still haven't even talked about this as much as it just keeps coming back to me. And that is that the Quran does in fact talk about and even participates in conversations that indicate unequal relations. But it does not rhetorically address females within the of heteronormative binary that we're all stuck in. It does not address the female and the male as if there is a necessary hegemony. Essentially there are situations. And those situations are talked about, they even supported, et cetera. And I kept experiencing something from the Quran that I was not experiencing in the tough literature at all. At all, it took me years before I began to state that we don't have a record of women's intellectual responses to the Quran until the 19th century. And that doesn't mean that just because it was a woman doing it that they were doing a gendered reading, as you know. But it seemed to me that, you know, in the field of hermeneutics and all of that, that reminds us that people read, speak, think, listen, you know, hear speech from a location. And as human beings from an embodied location, it occurred to me that, you know, there might have been something missing, but I didn't realize that it was so overt until after I'd finished the dissertation and after I had edited it to make that small volume. And looking back over it retrospectively, I thought, it's so easy to just point that out. Like, you know, maybe something is missing from the way in which we approach the war and if we don't have, you know, the female voice. So I went from two things intuition and baraka, because the Baraka of it is still something for which I am grateful. There were, there were no pointers for me. I didn't take women's studies in graduate school at all. The only courses I took in women's studies I took as an undergrad before I entered into Islam as my, you know, field for the future and a career. I took no classes in gender studies, so I didn't have any camaraderie. To push me towards where, you know, where I end up. But I continue to be embodied. And because of it, when I didn't hear myself in that discourse, then the only way I could refer to that discourse for the sake of a dissertation was to refer to it to show the absence of an engagement with gender. And yet I wasn't writing about Tessier. My interest was not intellectually interfere. I love to have her, but my interest was in the Quran. And so making a way through the field of discourses that have happened with regard to the Quran was not necessarily. The a tool that helped me to get at what it was that was such a burning, internal, intuitive matter for me. And that's really very fundamental and that is, I believe, the parents expressions with regard to its own universal guidance all times, all places, all people, et cetera, et cetera. So therefore, it has to be for me. Little known me, right? It wasn't grandiose, just little old me. And yet when I look in the literature, I am really, really absent and I thought, am I absent in the court? And to the same extent that I'm absent in this literature, which has become, for many people, a crutch to their being able to read the court and like, you can't read it unless you reference, you know, the literature and the like. And so it was a battle that I did I was fighting until after it was done. And then, you know, I get to look back on the pathway to making known the questions that I had as a part of more than just the personal or the selfish, you know, intellectual inquiry. I realize that it's bigger than me. So, you know, a lot of it was, you know, intuition and Baratta because I, you know, I I didn't see it coming. You know, if I look where I am now or where you know, the work has gone to now. It seems natural, but I didn't. I didn't see it. I really didn't. I tell the story often to people that, you know,
SAADIA YACOOB: I was sitting in the mustard one day reading your book and, you know, and somebody came to me and was like, that, you should not read this book like, you know, it's going to lead you astray. And you know, and it just shocked me because I was like, but what is it? What it's saying is so empowering to me as a Muslim woman, right? The fact that, you know, there there is a kind of, you know, that the Quran is not endorsing necessarily. It's not saying that what is divinely mandated are these centralized notions of gender and gender roles. And you know, and things of that nature are so empowering.
SAADIA YACOOB: So it spoke to so many of us because so many of us also found ourselves completely invisible in that kind of masjid rhetoric. As well as that they've seen literature, which I, you know, couldn't read at that point. But later, once I was able to, I was like, wow, you know, the only way you can see yourself as if you can somehow imagine that the conversation about the men also includes you, you know, and then sometimes it doesn't. And all of that. And I love to hear from you how you moved from that first book to the second, because for me, as a you know, somebody who has read both of those books multiple times and has taught them all. So I find so inspiring and incredible the ways in which I can see your trajectory as a thinker and as a scholar from the one book to the next and how much the second book shows both your own the development of your own thought, you know from when you first wrote that book, but also the interlocutors that you had after you wrote that first book and how much you were thinking with them in that second book.
Segment:4 Q3: "How did you move from the first book to the second?".
SAADIA YACOOB: So I'd love to hear about, you know, your journey from that first to the second book? And then also what did you have in mind as you were writing that second book?
AMINA WADUD: Well, you know, I think it's a, you know, it's a sort of like a truism that when you finish with your dissertation, if you haven't already produced a few articles from that research as you're going along, you're supposed to do something to get that research out into a book. And I literally could not get a job in the United States. I was, I would say, quantified, you know, hardcore hijabi. And you know, when I, you know, first joined the US university after the stint in Malaysia, there were no hijabs in the field of Islam. And, you know, Muslim studies, you know, it was, it was. It was just not there, you know? And so that created a sort of a political block. And so again, by the blessing of allah, I ended up in Malaysia and Malaysia was just starting the international Islamic university and I was one of the first PhD there. As a matter of fact, it was female and. You know, the context of Malaysia, which is right next door to me now in a place where I frequent the context of Malaysia, did something for my faith that all the eight years of graduate school just could not do, even though I was immersed in the Muslim community, I I ran the little newsletter that came out of the mosque. I, you know, I would run the sisters halacha over the week. I mean, I was immersed in the Muslim community. I wasn't as strange as a Muslim in graduate school, but going to Malaysia took the abstract and theological work that I had been doing for the sake of the PhD and catapulted it out into the world of what we now call lived realities and the establishment of Muslim personal status law. Now the law is not my area. I work with great colleagues, comrades and friends to learn the ways in which my own particular field of Islamic studies or ethnic studies, I mean, contributes to that conversation. But I had no way to take the conversation that I was making and to make it real, except for myself personally. And to realize that the construct of the law, especially as it's implemented by the state today. Well, first of all, it's constructed by many parts and one of those parts is the court. And so stripping back the layers of, you know, gender reading in the court and has become a part of this movement. And that gave me what I would call currency in the real world. And that really inspired me, irrespective of what would happen with regard to the US academy. But of course, after three years in Malaysia, I did return and I did get a regular, you know, tenure track job and I did keep going to tenure and I did keep going to full professor, you know, before I retired. And that's when. The second book began to materialize because I would present papers at professional groups, I would be invited to universities, I would be invited by student groups, which, you know, for some reason I really love because they were so enthusiastic about the first book. And I would also do stuff with regard to the confessional community. At the time, I wasn't blacklisted, so I could still do things, you know, within the confessional community. So I was producing a lot of thought on a lot of issues like the haditha paradigm and everything. And you know, they're like, you know, you're in the academy you're supposed to publish. So other than a few articles here and a few chapters here and all of that, I really hadn't pushed myself towards a second book. And I realized I need to do that. And maybe the way to do it is simply to bring together work that I've already done that has not been published. So that was the entire game plan. It wasn't really very creative. If I were editing it, I would make a lot of differences in terms of how it's structured. And I would rein me in the chapter on Muslim women's studies and the chapter on the new paradigm, in my estimation, are too long and they really need to, you know, there are just too many sidebars, you know? But it was it was necessary to move forward as far as publications go and in particular because chapter 6 and inside the gender jihad is sort of like put on a woman to. It developmentally, I was challenged by other progressive thinkers about this love that I have for the court and because basically they wanted to portray that love as a blind spot, you know, like you're not reading critically like you wouldn't be able to refute the text in any way, you know. So I had to think, am I addicted to this love to such an extent that I am blinded? And it took me. I mean, it literally took a number of years with a number of concrete developments to work on, you know, being able to say no to the text and choosing verse 434 to do that with because in my gut, I was already at the know. But as an academic, as an intellectual and as a believer, none of those gave me permission to do that. And so I was in one of those bifurcated locations where in my heart, in my gut and my soul, I do not believe you can beat a woman. Full stop. So what am I doing, so what I did in Qur'anic and woman was more of apologia. But that apology also becomes a part of what I call the four point methodology for understanding that it is necessary sometimes to say no to the implementation of a verse in the context of the implications of that verse as we know it now, based on live realities and the underlying principles of justice and human dignity.
AMINA WADUD: That was a beautiful experience, but it was also very painful because I didn't. There was a moment where I didn't want to let go of this bifurcation where I had some conversations intellectually, academically and spiritually. But I had, at the gut level a whole other thing going on, and I didn't know how to bridge those. And I didn't want to lie because it wasn't going to serve me at the deepest level of my soul. So I was pushed into it by, you know, sort of my own romanticism. And mercifully, I was able to do it, and I'm much happier with having done it in a very tedious manner because the four levels are very clear and I can recite them off the top of my head. Whereas for some things, the evolution within them happened so happenstance or so haphazardly that I kind of didn't know what was coming until it was there. And I look back as we were talking earlier, I look back and I say, oh, OK, that's where it's all going. But with this one it was, it was really very intentional. And the other part of it was locating myself within the struggle for gender justice as a reality for four Muslim women in lots of different areas. So that's pretty much all that the second book covers.
Segment:5 Q4: "Give us a sense of other figures in the field.".
SAADIA YACOOB: I wanted to ask you, though, as you're talking about you're talking about books and your journey moving from dissertation to the first book. And then the second book several times you mentioned people that you were in conversation with and have continued and others that you've been in conversation with, you know, even since the, you know, the second book. And I wanted to ask you to just kind of maybe give us a sense of both who some of these other figures were in the field that you were in conversation with or continue to be in conversation with. And you know, and just reflections on how your, you know, conversations with them, your engagement with them also, you know, sort of both impacted you, but also then impacted the field.
AMINA WADUD: Yes, and in this way, once again, I was extremely, extremely blessed. And that's why I have the series friends along the way. I've just met some of the most amazing people, people that I feel so grateful to be on the Plan with them at the same time. In reality, when I finished my PHD, first of all, I walked from my PhD pregnant with my fifth child. And so that means that in graduate school, I had zero social life. You know, after I married the second time, I wasn't editing the newsletter and I wasn't running women Holocaust or anything, I was just trying to get the dissertation done and try to take care of my family. But when I left the US for my first job, which was in Malaysia, I, I connected with people whose trajectory in life has just, you know, made my life feel like, you know, I have a purpose. For example, zainab Anwar is just now retiring. And when we met more than 30 years ago. And we started with six other women, AWS all together, we started sisters in Islam, which was one of the first pro faith Muslim women's organizations in the world. That was not that was not a wing of a men's organization in a very conservative, neo conservative way. There was a set of. !invisible!, overlapping. Concerns that allowed for it was also one of the first Muslim women's organizations that understood the significance of progressive scholarship to the on the ground activism and the policy reform work that they were doing. So they brought all kinds of people there. I met first abdullahi Naim through a sisters in Islam function. I met Doctor zeb Amir Hosseini, with whom I still work. In fact, I have a meeting with her tomorrow and allowing for me to have my own kind of abstract reasoning. And at the same time as I said, to tie it to the actual trajectory of these policy reforms and sort of constitutional challenges and international instruments and all that kind of stuff was one of those blessings because otherwise I would never have been able to make the link I was so far out there on the abstraction route. But one of the other delights, of course, was being invited to South Africa in 1994, which was, you know, two years after I left Malaysia and my South African friends and family are amazing people. I definitely fell in love with Fred isaak when I first met him, because to me, intelligence is typekit most interactive thing that a human being can have. And his work over the years, you know, also challenged me to get a little bit up to date with regard to decolonial studies and the like. Sadia Shaikh was a student, if you can believe it. I just love this about knowing her as a student, and she wowed the whole committee when she did her or her dissertation and, you know, to be invited to be a part of that. Even though I was not in her institution, I was an outside reader and they all agreed that it was excellent. So that's a budding scholar whom I have known, you know, since, you know, almost about the time, well before she was married, you know? But then I've also known her as she established herself after the PHD, as, you know, a mom and a wife and, you know, professor. But what happened in the context of the US was very interesting because people like aisha Ali, Juliana Hamer and Laurie silver when they did this mischief. They really gave me greater confidence in the collegiality of the discourses about gender in the context of the US. They don't all do the same thing right now. Laurie, this is an amazing novelist. I'm reading her third novel as we speak as a matter of fact, but they made me feel like I was a part of a woman's corner in the world of Islam and Islamic studies, and we could talk about every kind of topic because there were a similar faith based motivations. But also they are all very serious in terms of their scholarship and the contributions they've made in different areas that they were. So that's been a very lovely, been a very lovely thing. Recently, I have met Ismail and Robert from Morocco and Zaire jouyet from Tunisia. They both worked with the musawwir movement, and it's really nice to have, you know, native Arabic speakers who are very, very erudite in their work and very, very progressive, challenging in the work that they contribute, and I'm still learning from them. I just wanted to name a few of the scholars who came after me, like Jerusha Lamptey, Tanner, who has a new last name now, who works on an interfaith dialogue analysis of the Qur'anic, and Zahra Ayyub, whom I just met, who works on ethics. I'm just smitten by her work. There's a recent book out. I wish I could jump up and get it from my shelf, you know, called women as imams that was produced by actually an Italian woman who's been doing scholarship and women's leadership for some time. I met her in a few conferences in Europe. Simonet seems so bad. Oh my goodness. So there is, you know, there is amazing work that's coming down the pike. But I have to confess that I don't know the youngest generation. So people who are, you know, students now because I left US academia, I literally in 2006. So that means a lot of years have passed that things are going on that I haven't been a part of.
SAADIA YACOOB: It does happen that if you're not a part of the US academy or connected with it, somehow it's very hard to sort of connect and with of what's what's, you know, what's happening, who are the students and you know, who are at these conferences that are so incredibly expensive that it's very hard to, you know, to go and things of that nature. But I really appreciated this.
Segment:6 Q5: "What are your hopes for the field in the next decade?".
SAADIA YACOOB: You know, you kind of giving us a sense of this, you know, so many different generations of scholars that you have been in conversation with and the way in which they've, you know, shaped you also as a thinker, but you very much also shaped them as thinkers and scholars. And you know, and that kind of brings us to this moment in terms of where the field is now, which, you know, you reflected on a little bit earlier the ways in which you see, you know, a kind of gender studies engagement or, you know, the study of gender within Islamic studies, having more of a sense of community really exciting and incredibly groundbreaking work that is coming out, you know, very similarly to what you described. I often feel so excited by the scholarship that I read that is coming out because it's asking these questions that I feel like the broader field is not asking, you know, like it's like this question of, OK, so what are the relations between people? How are those relations? Imagine how, how did we how do they think about ethical engagement, you know, in hierarchical relationships, what are, you know? So there's so many really rich conversations that are being opened up by the scholarship that is being done in, you know, gender and sexuality studies in relation to Islam. But I wanted to get your thoughts on, you know, where do you see the field in the next decade? You know, you've seen the evolution of the field in so many different ways. You know, over the years, you know, both, where do you kind of see it going next? Or also what? What are your hopes, you know, for the field in the next decade or so?
AMINA WADUD: I think I'm very much inspired by the critical and quantitative inquiry done by Dr. kecia Ali with regard to how male scholars there still holed up in the little boy's club. And I said. Little boys, intentionally, they are not producing the work that is as exciting as the work that's coming through on gender and sexuality, and they're also not acknowledging the progress of gender and sexuality as an aspect of study within Islamic studies. And in a way, they're kind of like weighing us down. And the reality, of course, is that the younger male scholars are the literally not burdened by the lack of competence with regards to gender and sexuality that existed in the generations two generations before them. They simply are into it. And so when I meet people by the buy who do certain things like Ali or Rumi, who is a historian, was part of a course that I was invited to do a unit for also virtually during the pandemic on queer Islamic thought and his work on history already because he does all that esoteric stuff. So, you know, just absolutely smitten with him. But I also noticed the ease with which he discussed certain representations of with regard to sexuality from his own historical location that not the main area that he's focusing on, but he's comfortable in his own skin. And I think that that's what's happening. I think that there is a generation that's coming both in terms of activism and in terms of scholarship. There's a generation that's coming that simply don't bow down to the tropes that imprisoned us within the field of some studies. You know, even in my generation. And I look forward to the free flow of conversations that are not afraid to include the element of sexuality, to include the elements of gender, to include the discourse about race, to interrogate the locations with regard to class able as imperialism. I mean, you know, there's just this free flow of conversation that's happening in a generation that I'm not immediately in touch with, with the exception of the fact that I'm teaching now over here in Indonesia and I'm a little bit displaced because I really don't have the language to, I think, do as good a job as I would like to have happen. But you know, they're interested to have me, so we'll work it out. But I really hope that what Dr. Kecia Ali observed with regard to scholars in my generation and even in the generation after me will not occur for the next generations, that there will be a much more conscious inclusion in the conversation of voices that in the past, we might have considered these voices to be subaltern. But as I said earlier, I can't remember. It was part of what we were recording or not. I am now saying that Islamic feminism is the most progressive discourse and reformist Islam period, and that no matter what area that you're working on, if you are not also interrogating gender, you're not doing your work. I'm just going to say that. And the reason is because when you have had to create the inroads because they simply weren't there, you realize that part. You know, it's like the gatekeepers, you know, part of what was keeping you from making the inroads with these arbitrary gatekeepers. And so what I see amongst people in the generation that you will be teaching, what I see amongst them is a greater readiness for that. So therefore, the courses need to be out there. The books, the articles, the webinars that the discourse needs to be happening in order to keep, you know, the, you know, the best and the brightest amongst us bright. They don't I don't think they're going to continue to allow themselves to be undermined with regard to the need to interrogate how these things do intersect. That's just from an outsider point of view, you know, sort of guessing added on the basis of personal contact, but not on the basis of having any. I don't know where the field is, to be honest.
SAADIA YACOOB: Yeah, I think this is, you know, I very much share your hope that, you know, there will be this kind of growth in the field more broadly in the sense of incorporating so much of the scholarship on, you know, in Muslim feminist studies. Because in some ways, yeah, those networks endure, it's like, you know, there are increasingly I find people who don't like, you're describing that people who don't necessarily focus on gender themselves, but they see the value in the scholarship of, you know, of those of us who do that work and want to incorporate that into their own scholarship, into their teaching. And you know, and to be, you know, conversation partners. But then there is those folks that just endure, they just are see themselves as like, you know, the real field and have these kinds of, you know, walls that are so hard to traverse. But, you know, hopefully once you know your kind of, you know, you get enough people who see the value of the work and want to engage with it, I'm hoping that'll make you know that group feel less and less able to uphold, you know, these exclusions that you know, they're so insistent on.
AMINA WADUD: I would be really interested in your take on this because you are, you know, you're coming into the positions of authority in a time frame that's very distant from me. So how is it that you are experiencing at least? I mean, maybe I'm fantasizing, but at least it seems to me that there is a greater integration. There's a greater hunger for that integration and that this literature that's being produced, that's making that integration seamlessly, even though that wasn't true even as little as 10 or 15 years ago. So I kind of need you to catch me up to date in terms of on the field.
SAADIA YACOOB: A lot of what you're sensing and describing, I think for me resonate in that I can see, you know, those shifts and changes that have happened over the years that you're describing, even just, you know, from when I first got interested in graduate study, not even necessarily going to graduate school to where I am now. I feel like there is very much this supportive network and community that I'm a part of. You know, they're certainly in my own journey. There have been individual mentors like you and others who really helped me along the way. But it doesn't feel like just individual mentors anymore. It feels like there's actually a community that I'm a part of, and I increasingly find people, you know, in the field more broadly in Islamic studies more broadly who are interested in the work that I'm doing, for example, or other scholars source or more junior scholars are doing, where you can see that they can actually understand why the conversations that we're having, the arguments that we're making, the questions that we're asking are really valuable for the questions that they're asking. They can see those connections. And I'm hoping that that will sort of continue and travel, you know, over the years. And I think there's, you know, our own kind of exclusions as a kind of subfield, right, that we need to sort of think about. I think there's a way in which race has not really been a part of the subject of inquiry in Muslim feminist studies, both sort of interrogating our own sort of racial position as well as. The questions that were asking. I know there's some really incredible work that is now kind of starting to happen that is thinking actually about Blackness and, you know, in the pre-modern literature, something that I think is very, very new. Until recently, there weren't too many, you know, scholars who are thinking about this question. And then there's the whole question I think about, you know, queer studies and sexuality studies that I think is, you know, there's a conversation that is happening, but I often feel that, you know, those who are having the gender conversation are not always having that conversation with those who are, you know, asking questions about sexuality. And you know, and you know, nonbinary, you know, individuals and you know and sort of thinking about all of these questions, which I think is, you know, sadly very much part of what happened in women and gender and sexuality studies more broadly. And, you know, in the academy, right? I mean, those same kinds of boundaries are being maintained sadly, in our own kind of subfield. So I think I'm excited about the fact that we are now established enough as a field that we can actually start interrogating ourselves. You know, it takes I feel like it takes a certain amount of you establishing yourself to then be able to turn critique onto yourself and say, OK, what are the exclusions that I'm creating? But at some level, I feel like, you know, that network that you're describing really still continues to endure of people. You know, it really depends on the spaces that I'm in. I often sort of actively choose to be in spaces that are supportive and nurturing. But then because I, you know, I'm also the of early Islamic law person, I find myself in these spaces with other people who see themselves as scholars of Islamic law, and oftentimes those are very nurturing and supportive spaces. But certainly, I've had these experiences where you go in and it just, you know, that feeling of like what you do is not, you know, you're imposing questions, you're not really engaging, you know, Islamic law. And at some level, you know, they can't really challenge the material that I'm reading and how I'm reading it because I have the kind of linguistic skills as well as familiarity with the legal tradition to be able to do a lot of what they do. But the questions that I bring in, so I you know, there are times when I find myself in, in conversations where I'm like, OK, so this is what I'm thinking about. These are the questions that I'm asking. This is what I'm arguing and I feel like the conversation is like this, you know, like, I am having one conversation, they're having another conversation and I'm just like, you're not getting it. They're like, you're not getting it right. So, so and you know, and those are, I think, are the kinds of exclusions that I think still continue to exist where people just don't see the point in the work that so many of us do. And now they can't necessarily accuse us of not knowing Arabic well enough or not knowing, you know, whatever language well enough, not knowing the genre well enough because I think we've come to a point where so many of us have been trained, you know, both linguistically as well as, you know, texturally. But those questions that bring us that animate us, you know, that we are interested in still remain to a lot of people just, you know, honestly, it feels to me like they think it's uninteresting, which I'm like, I don't understand how you could think that like, you know, it's to me, these are such animating conversations. They're such, you know, they're so rich and in what they're interested and thinking about and asking. But I think when you have a certain way of thinking of what you think is important, what counts as scholarship and things of that nature that are very confining, right? They define what constitutes scholarship in a very confining way. It's, you know, often those people are not able to find the work that we do to be valuable. And then the exclusions start right because they happen in these everyday mundane ways of, OK, we're putting together, you know, x number of people to come and present their work. And then you want to bring the people that you think are interesting, and you think that everybody who does work on gender and sexuality is not interesting, right? So I still definitely feel those exclusions. My hope is similar to what you were saying is that I think there will be enough of a community, not just, you know, the community of those of us that do this work, but also those that very much support us and see tremendous value in the work that we do, that that community will continue to grow to where the even if they. Want to exclude us, they can't, right? I mean, it'll get to the point similar to what we've seen with some of, you know, the worth that kisha has been kishida has been doing where, you know, you put that conference together, somebody is going to ask you, where are the people who work on gender and sexuality? Where are the people who are working on race? Like, why are they not here? So then, even if you don't want to invite those people, you'll invite them because you don't want that question posed at you, right? Because you don't have any answer, any good answer for why those people are not there, right? So that is what I'm hoping will happen over the next decade or two decades,
AMINA WADUD: I think to call them out, you know, I mean, we have to call them out. We have to say no, all-male panels and we have to look, ask them to look critically at their own citations and the like. And I was in a conference once. Actually, we were in San Diego of all places. So some places you end up with. And there was a very progressive Shia scholar. And when Mir husseini asked him something that had to do with gender, he basically said to her, we're having a real conversation over here. You know, how would you bring this topic up? Well, I was on the panel with him and I spoke after him. So of course, I had to call him out about, you know, encapsulating the part of the conversation. Minus gender is being real in anything with gender as being something else, you know? So you have to call them out. I mean, I didn't mean it in any personal way. But what happens is when you have a respect for this vast intellectual legacy that is Islam, you have respect for the sources, you have respect for the sources in their own languages and stuff like that. You go through the study to prepare yourself to be able to investigate them. You see how rich it is. So there's no undermining of the value that's within that. Sometimes people misread me to say because I am critical with regard to the absence of gender as a category of thought and some of that work that it means that all that work has been thrown out. By no means is that the case. However, when you have in our generation, we are now at the beginning of the third decade of the 21st century, when at this time, we still have to make a case for the interrogation of race, class, gender, sexuality, embolism, linguistic groups and the like. We still have to make those interrogations. It says something about the basic and fundamental human dignity, and that the purpose of the study of Islam has always been about the enhancement of the human being. It's not for just, you know, like the abstractions that I still love. It is also about qualitatively about information as a part of transformation because it is both descriptive and prescriptive. So when we are doing scholarship. And we are participating in these kinds of marginalization, we do a disservice to the scholarship, really. And so that's, you know, that's why I say, you know, you have to call them out in its gentle ways as possible, like the work that keesha did because she did it in a way that was just like emotionally very flat, you know? And yet when I see it, I get, like, very emotionally passionate.
SAADIA YACOOB: I love the numbers. It's like, you can't fight with the numbers. I look through your bibliography. I counted it all up.
AMINA WADUD: It was so profound to do it that way because it's like irrefutable, you know? So, yeah, and I mean, it was not it's not like, what happened with me if I'd be there? You know, I'm just an angry black woman. And of course, you know, we have reason for being who we are. But yeah, I mean, when it gets to the point where people understand that what we are trying to do is to create, I love your words, to create intellectual communities, and that the purpose of our discourse is to produce new knowledge because the world is always changing. And so knowledge has to continue to be produced. And even this interrogative reading of the classical sources and the neo, the pre-modern sources and all that, even that kind of reading that we're doing. It's a kind of reading that actually pumps new life even into those text. So, yeah, I mean, you know, I'm grateful that you are here. I'm grateful that you have taken up the task that you've taken up in exactly the way that you're doing it because I would never have been able to go and do that at school and do all the stuff that you're doing. So I'm happy to have you here, because it makes it possible for me to learn more without having to do all the hard work.
SAADIA YACOOB: Well, I mean, honestly, you know, for me, it's like, it's really the path that you and others have made for, you know, younger scholars like me to be able to walk this path. I, they like so much of what I am, would not have been possible at all if it had not been for the paths that you and others have created for people like me, both in terms of the opportunity to actually do the work that we're doing to ask those questions and the fact that, you know, to a certain extent, people might push back, but not in the ways that you know, that you're describing of what you experience, you know, when you were writing your first book, but also in that. You know, there's a kind of, you know, knowledge base, right, that we have sort of grown up as scholars reading, if I can think of it that way, right? That like there's so much scholarship that I read that got me to thinking to the point that I'm at, right? So I'm continuing a conversation. And you know, and then you're able to do particular things that you know, others might not have been able to do, but that's because they've already done that work right. That then allows you to start to ask the questions that you're asking. But I wanted to, you know, I really love the way that you're describing the role of the scholar and their responsibility to the world. And I think for me, one of the things that I love about, you know, you as a scholar and something that you know, I hope, you know, maybe hopefully post tenure to also kind of, you know, to model is the way in which to you, you as a scholar and you're living in the world is not separated, right? I feel like so much of the way in which the academy works, especially in the u.s., is that somehow scholarship is this thing that happens. Academics are these, you know, people that live in this other world. And somehow, if you are concerned with the world, concerned with what the knowledge that you're producing, what, what, what it will do in the world makes you not a real scholar, right? That somehow you don't have some kind of ethical responsibility to communities and into the world, period in which you are sitting as a scholar and and I think you really very much push against any such way of thinking about knowledge.
Segment:7 Q6: "What do you see as the implication of your scholarship?".
SAADIA YACOOB: So I wanted to ask, you know, what do you see as the implication of the your scholarship, as well as the scholarship that is being produced in women gender, sexuality studies in relation to Islam? What kind of implication does it have for people on the ground for communities, women's groups, you know, in different movements on the ground, what do you see as that kind of relationship between them, but also the implication that that scholarship has or should have for communities on the ground?
AMINA WADUD: Yeah, I was so lucky to come to Malaysia at the time that I came, and I've never belonged to any group except for sisters in Islam. Literally, I mean, maybe American religion, but I don't account that among my personal accolades, I never belong to any groups. I was not a part of the movement of musawwir, although I'm just so in love with them. And what has happened is again, looking at younger generations and people who we've been teaching in our courses on gender equality and Islam, Islam and gender justice is what this is called is to. Give an appreciation. For the breadth that is this Islamic intellectual tradition. But to relocate it. In the construct that it is because it empowers people to talk back to authorities who arbitrarily assert their authority to close off a conversation that would be inclusive of their realities. And there is nothing in life that is better than that, except for maybe children and grandchildren. I mean, this whole idea that you could we just got off a course with people from Sudan and South Sudan because they have a new government and everything. And of course, they're trying to push the same old tropes with regard to gender. So we had like 30 participants. And we did this whole course online, which was just mind boggling. But, you know, it worked out well. I'm sorry. They were in a room, and there were facilitators there, and many of us were just online. So that's how we continue with the course during the lockdowns. But to understand that people, first of all, are probably not going to become scholars of the fear or of hanafi sect, but but you can inspire in them a certain appreciation for the scholarship that they can concentrate in their own areas with regard to their particular needs and talk back to people who, as I said, arbitrarily try to assert their authority over them. That's really exciting. And for me, it was because the sisters in Islam, which started in 1987 and I came to Malaysia in 1989, and they registered after that because sisters in Islam grew to have an appreciation for progressive scholarship as part of the formula. I was given a new lease on life. I was able to have a second level of currency, which to me when I retired from US academia. I did not miss US academia at all because I was applying myself to a place where what I was applying myself to literally made a difference in people's lives in a very immediate way. And so sometimes when you go into places because I used to go into places with activists and they would basically say it's too abstract, it's too many three syllable words and all that kind of stuff. And I used it because this used to happen when I first entered into queer spaces, but we moved on. But I used to say everyone has something that they can contribute to the struggle. And you have to figure out what it is that you can contribute. I know what I can contribute. So you don't want to shut me out because of the way in which I make that contribution happens to be too many three syllable words because we're in a conversation together. And we're already a minority, you know? So I had to really have people understand that I am wedded to certain causes with regard to social justice. But I may not be the person who can give you the feedback with regard to how you put it into operation with regard to the convention for the elimination of all forms of discrimination against women or female, that may not be my strong for you. But from my strong point, I do have something to offer. And eventually, the resistance broke down because I wasn't trying to be removed simply because I do discourse with three syllable words quite frequently. You know, and yet people were like, I don't understand it. So therefore it's irrelevant. And I'm like, we are working and understanding, and you can't, you know, try to shut me out just because you don't understand. Let's work at understanding each other, you know, so those are the bygone days with regard to that. Now, it's pretty much understood. And I like them. The challenge that comes back when active is on the ground. Understand that, well, you know what? Maybe we need to have study circles for about a year. Let's get these things together. So we get some kind of grounding in what we want to do. And then they become producers, you know? But I also like when they pose questions based on realities for which I don't have an abstract answer because that means I've got work to do. So there is a dynamism that's happening there that I really think that, first of all, I basically tell people. I enjoyed my retirement, which I did because I was very active. And I was challenged intellectually, spiritually, morally, ethically, you know, sometimes physically, but I'm trying to make sure people understand I'm old now, so just don't do it. But the whole idea that a conversation can go between different parties for the same impact that has brought a lot of life to me because in the academy, you could just keep writing books, which is nice because I read them. You could just keep producing conversations that are only appropriate to graduate students, which is nice because of course, graduate students have really interesting conversations. You know, you could do all of that and all that's good and well. But to also cross over into this other realm in one way, I want to say it was not so easy, but another way I want to say it was inevitable. It was inevitable, at least for me, and the way that I proved it was to literally come up for full professor and then say, thank you, I'm never returning. And then I would often, you know, you know, I've said, well, what am I to do about income? I just had to make do what until a made away, you know? So I think that I think that being in the world as the world is. And at the same time, embracing my own nature as a little bit of an abstract theological type thinker gave me greater pluralism in the journey, which is life. Had I been, quote unquote more successful in the academy because I mean, literally, I should put it out there. I think that if I was a white guy or even a brown guy, that they would have been endowed chair for me long time ago, and that didn't happen. And because it didn't happen, I had to make my way on the margins. And as I made my way on the margins, actually, the whole universe got bigger. So it didn't close me in at all. And I'm not sure if I had been nurtured more within the academy, if I would have been equally happy. I'm not sure. I mean, I love the intellectual wisdom, but I really love the fact that I'm not bounded by it and it doesn't write the script in terms of how it is that I get to express my ideas, ask my questions, seek for answers to those questions and the like.
SAADIA YACOOB: I love this point that you're making about the challenge to you as a scholar that you, you know that it's actually challenging when you are in communities you know who haven't read everything that you've read, right? Who aren't necessarily committed to thinking about things in xyz way because that's what the field has done so far. Who then turn to you and they're like, yeah, but what about this right? Or that doesn't make sense? Or, you know, I don't agree with this and the way in which that challenges you as a scholar, you know, because we tend to think about you being challenged as a scholar only happening in the academy with other scholars, right? And don't see communities and you know, people that were in relationship with as also challenging you, right? It doesn't happen in the same ways that we see an intellectual challenges. But you know, it is incredibly I you know, I find and again, you know, I sadly the way grad school and, you know, life on the 10 year clock is it kind of makes you focused on that and that alone. So a lot of the kind of communal communal work that I used to do as kind of sadly fallen on the wayside. But, you know, to the extent that I feel like, you know, I've always felt that, you know, wanted to make a conscious effort to not end up only being friends with other academics, you know, and so being, you know, like in community and in friendships with people, you know, many of whom are not academics at all have not read a lot of this literature. I often find, you know, it's like when I'm like, OK, well, I think this right about xyz issue. And then people being like. Well, I don't know, like what about this and what about that and it's actually really challenging for me to like know how to make my point and make my argument without relying on the fact that they have read all of these other things because of which they will understand what it is that I'm trying to do. I mean, it's incredibly challenging in ways that I feel like it's not challenging when you're there at a conference presenting a paper and then somebody gets up and it's like, well, what about xyz person who's written this? And you know, what are you saying in relation to that? It's a very different kind of intellectual challenge that I can certainly see both how, you know, I can see how generative it is, you know, for you as a thinker.
AMINA WADUD: I also want you to worry about periods of time when you have to focus a little bit, even if those periods of time end up being three years, six years, something like that because you will have a life after that. And when you have a small child and you're balancing that and you're also up against one of the man's rule books, you know, like you have to cross off certain T's and dot certain I's to get across that finish line. But if you don't get across the finish line, you will never be able to go to the next thing. And that's what I tell students. I said, you know what? You have the opportunity to just be a student. The world will still be going on, and you do want to keep yourself abreast of those things, but you don't want to make it so that you get so far stretched out there that you can't complete that thing. So don't worry about it, because guess what? The world is not going to perfect itself, you know, just because you wait for your 10 year by time, 10 years time. Guess what? They're still going to be?
SAADIA YACOOB: I guess it'll still be, you know, as messed up of a world as it has been for so long.
Segment:8 Q7: "What do you see as the impact of public scholarship?".
SAADIA YACOOB: So I would love to hear your thoughts on what do you see as the impact of public scholarship? And you know, how can it have that impact or what does it need to look like in order to have an impact on, you know, for people on the ground to be in conversation with people to be a part of that struggle? What kind of role can it have and and in what ways?
AMINA WADUD: Yeah, I think I see the world as a series of overlapping circles. And, you know, whichever one is the center because of the priorities that make it central does not mean that it's isolated. It does overlap. So I think that, you know, sort of the public intellectual reality you have to remember. I don't know why this always comes to me because I'm writing right now. I'm writing a book on a progressive perspective on the five pillars. And it was based on a project that I took up a long time ago, and the publishers got back to me and said, well, what about this? And I just thought, oh, I have, I'm in the perfect place because I'm still in lockdown, so let me just go ahead and work on it. And so to say things with regard to just the five pillars, really. But I'm doing it from a progressive perspective because there's no such intro book on the five pillars. That's progressive, you know? But I say things like, you know, the performance of the prayer is actually based on the relationship between the sun and the Earth. The marking of the calendar. To begin the Islamic month of Ramadan, which we're in now, is based on the cycles of the moon, right? But there was a time when humankind thought that the Earth was the center of the universe, and that's why the only words that we have or sunrise and sunset, which by the way, are used in the. And even though the sun does not move, at least not in that way. So I just think we went from a sort of flat, two dimensional perspective on the universe to three dimensional. And now people are out into the four or five and six that I don't even understand. I'll be honest. Humankind does develop, and I think in terms of Islam, Islamic thought muslims, but not exclusively Muslims because Islamic thought is not exclusive for muslims, really. I think that we need to have an impact on public discourse, public recognition of the realities of the potential for that Islamic worldview to have an impact on the good. We are still coming out of the saddle of the last decade with the worst manifestations of sort of violent extremism, and we don't want to leave the next decade with that being the face of Islam. So there is a role to be to be played with regard to just raising the level of consciousness, but everybody is not going to be a part of every little detail of that discourse within that circle. But where those circles are overlapping, you just take those spaces and you engage in those spaces and then you go on because your circle goes on as well. And I love this that image of the overlapping circles, because sometimes we want more than is really do in the circumstances period in which we're making the contribution or we're seeking the wisdom. Sometimes there's only so much that you're going to get there. And sometimes there's only so much that you can give. And that's OK because you give your best. And what someone takes away from that is completely between them law, at least in terms of my worldview. So it's not always like everything that I say is not going to satisfy everybody because I'm going to say it in the way that feels comfortable for me. But sometimes something comes across. And I have learned to be happy with that because my sense of what is community is not that everybody does exactly everything in exactly the same way. And that's OK, because when we come together as a community, we're going to need people to do things, so I don't do it all right, so I'm happy to have them. So we don't want to look at, you know, public intellectual wisdom as if it is the answer for everything and that everybody has to do with the same way, but rather that it is part of the discourse. It's part of the community and an important part, but not the only part.
Segment:9 Conclusion.
SAADIA YACOOB: I am very grateful to have had the opportunity to know you. You know, over the years to have met you, you know, I mean, the way that we met was also so like totally one of those things where it's like that is what was intended by Allah, right? The coming together of, you know, of our lives. And you know that we've been able to sort of stay connected and very grateful for that. But I remember I dreamt about you the first night, I remember.
AMINA WADUD: That's wonderful. I do remember that that was a moment for me where
SAADIA YACOOB: I was like, wow, all right. So this is a path. I'm meant to walk, right? It's those are those moments where you're like, am I? Am I walking the right path? OK, no, I think I meant to walk this path. But really, it's such an incredible honor for me to have this conversation with you. You know, I feel like the ability to kind of sit with you and talk about where you began and how that's evolved and where you've come to, but also to get your thoughts and advice on these things that so many of us who are, you know, just kind of starting out our thinking about and wanting to, you know, get perspective on, I think that that for me really means so much. So thank you. Thank you for sharing so much.
AMINA WADUD: It was a pleasure. Thank you very much. I enjoyed it.
Language: AR.
Segment:1 Introduction.
أنا أردت فقط أن أقول يا له من شرف لا يصدق والامتياز الذي تمثله بالنسبة لي، هذه المحادثة يعني أننا أنا و انت نعود للوراء كثيرًا لقد كنت مرشدjي منذ كنت طالبة جامعية الحصول على هذه الفرصة أن أحضى بمحادثة معك حول رحلتك لقد قرأت البعض عنها أجرينا محادثات حولها ولكن أن أكون حقًا قادرة على الجلوس وتدقيقها وأن أسمع من طرفك وأسالك أسئلة أكثر، الأسئلة التي كانت تجوب مخيلتي لقد كان هذا حقا شرفًا وامتيازًا لي لذا اسمحي لي أن أبدأ أعوذ بالله من الشيطان الرجيم باسم الله الرحمان الرحيم أبدأ، كما أبدأ دائمًا باسم الله الذي أطلب نعمته في هذا وجميع الأمور الأخرى لأن الدكتورة سعاد جاءت لزيارتي عندما قمت بزيارة خفيفة لرؤية عائلتي لأول مرة منذ الجائحة طلبت نصيحتها فيما يتعلق بمحاولة الحصول على ركلة بداية بالدراسات الإسلامية وعلم اللاهوت قالت شيئا بخصوص ذلك لا يزال يتردد صداه قالت فقط تصرفي كأنه كذلك بالفعل كان ذلك عميقًا جدًا قالت ، لأننا بدأنا بالتو العمل على الموسوعة كما لو كانت موجودة كان هناك عدد قليل من الناس وكانوا فقط يتواصلون على أساس أفضل فكرة وكان ذلك مؤثرًا جدًا لأنه في الواقع ??? ???????? ?? ????? ?? ???????? ???????
?? ???? ???????? ??????? ????? ?????????? ????????? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ?? ????? ?? ????? ???????? ????????? ?????
???? ????? ?? ???????? ??????? ????????? ???????? ??? ???????? ???????? ?????? ?? ???????? ???????? ?? ????? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ??????? ?? ??????
Segment:2 Q1: "Where do you see the field now?".
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?????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ?? ?? ??????? ?? ?? ???? ??????? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???????? ????????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ????
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Segment:3 Q2: "How did you come to writing your first book?".
????? ???? ????? ????? ???????? ????? ??? ??? ??????? ?? ?? ??????? ?? ??????? ?????? ???????? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ????? ?? ???????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ???????? ????? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ??????? ?? ???????
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??????? ??? ??? ???: ?????????? ?? ???????? ?? ??????? ? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ??????? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??????? ? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????
?????: ? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??????? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??????
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?????: ??? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?????
?????: ?? ????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??.. ?? ?????? ...?? ???? ???????? ??? ?? ???? ?? ?? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???????? ???????? ????? ?????? ??????? ???????? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ??????
?????: ??? ??????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??????? ??? ??????? ??????? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ??? ??????? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ?? ??? ??????? ?? ???? ??? ???
?????: ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ??????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ?????
Segment:4 Q3: "How did you move from the first book to the second?".
?????: ??? ???? ?????? ??????
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00: 29:49.688 --> 29:50.522 ?? ??????? ?? ?????
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Segment:5 Q4: "Give us a sense of other figures in the field.".
00: ?? ??? ???? ????
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00: ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ???? ?? 30 ????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????? "????? "????? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???????? ???????? ??????? ??????? ?? ??????
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00: ???? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ??? 1994 ?? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ?? ???? ??????? ???? ?????? ???? ???????? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ??????
00: ?? ???? ???????? ?????? ???? ??? ???????? ??????????? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ???????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ????? ???? ????????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???????
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Segment:6 Q5: "What are your hopes for the field in the next decade?".
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00: ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ???? ??? ??????? ??????????? ??????? ?????????? ?????? ?? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???
00: ??? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???????? ???? ???????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??? ??????? ???? ???????? ??? ? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ?????
00: ??? ??????? ??????? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???????? ?? ??????? ?????? ???? ??????? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??????? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ? ??????? ??????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ??????
00: ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??????? ????????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ??????
00: ????? ??? ??? ??????? ??????? ?? ????? ???? ???????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ????????
00: ????? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??????? ????????? ???? ??????? ????? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ???????
00: ???? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?????????? ????? ?? ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ??????? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??????????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ??????? ???? ???????? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??????
Segment:7 Q6: "What do you see as the implication of your scholarship?".
00: ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?? ????????? ????????? ????????? ???????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ?? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ???????
00: ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ?????? ?? ????? ??????? ???? ??? ??????? ????? ?????? ????? ????????? ??????? ???? ????? ????????? ?? ??? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ?????????? ????????? ?????? ???????? ???????? ??? ??? ???????
00: ?? ?? ??? ??????? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ????????? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ??????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ?? ??????? ...????? ?? ???? ????? ---- ?????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???
00: ???????? ??????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ??????? ?????? ???????? ????? ??? ?????? ???????? ?? ???????? ??? ??????? ?? ??????? ??????? ???????? ??? ??????? ?? ?? ????
00: ?? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ?? ???????? ??????? ????????? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ??????
00: ?? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???????? ??????? ???????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??????? ????? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ----- ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ????? 30 ????? ????? ???? ?????? ????????? ????? ??? ????????
00: ????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ???????? ??? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ??????? ??? ???? ?? ?????
00: ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ??????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??????? ?? ???????? ?????? ???? ????? ??????????? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ?????? ??? ??? ??????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????
00: ??? ???? ???? ???????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ?? ??? 1987 ???? ??? ??????? 1989 ?????? ???????? ??? ??? ??? ??????? ?? ??????? ???? ??????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??????
00: ????? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ??????? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ??????? ?????????? ????????? ?? ????? ??????? ?????????? ????????? ??? ??????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ??????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???????
00: ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???????? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ?? ??
00: ????? ???? ????? ???????? ?? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ???????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??????? ??????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ? ??? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ?????
00: ???????? ?????????? ??? ?? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ????? ???????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??????? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????
00: ??? ??? ?????? ?? ??????? ?????? ???????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ?????? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ?? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ?? ????? ?????? ??????
00: ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ??????? ????? ??? ??????? ????
00: ???? ???? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ????????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???
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00: ??? ????? ?????? ???? ??????? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ?????????? ????? ????????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ????????? ?? ????? ????????? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???????? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? ????
00: ????? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ??????? ??????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??????? ??? ???????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ???????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ????
00: ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ?? ???? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ???????? ?? ??????
00: ????? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ??????? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ?????????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???????? ??? ?? ????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ??????
00: ?????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ??????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ??????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ??????? ???? ?????????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?????
00: ???? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ??????? ?? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ???????? ????? ?????? ??????? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??????? ??
00: ???? ?? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???????? ??????? ???????? ?? ??????? ?????? ?.?.? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?? ???? ??? ? ??? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???????? ???? ??? ????? ??????
00: ????? ???? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?? ?????????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????????? ???????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ????
00: ??? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ??????? ??????? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ??????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??
00: ???? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ??????????? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ??? ???????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????????? ??? ??????? ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ???????? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?.?.? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???
00: ... ?? ???? ???? ?? ??? ? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???????? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?? ????? ??
00: ?? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ?? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?.?.? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ??????? ???? ?????? ???????? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ??????
00: ?? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??????? ??????? ?? ???? 3 ????? ?? 6 ????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?????
00: ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??????? ? ???????? ?????? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ???????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ??????
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Segment:8 Q7: "What do you see as the impact of public scholarship?".
00: ?????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??????
00: ????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ??????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?????
00: ??? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ?? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ??????? ????????? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ????????? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ??????
00: ??? ? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ??????? ???????? ???? ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???????? ??? ??????
00: ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ??????? ????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ??????? ???? ????? ???????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???????? ??? ??????? ????? ???? ?? ?????
00: ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ??????? ??? ????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ????? ??????? ????????? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??????
00: ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??????? ??????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ? ?????????? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??????? ????? ???? ??????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ??? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ??????? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ? ?????? ? ??????
00: ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??????? ?????? ????????? ???????? ???? ??? ???????? ??? ??? ????? ???????? ??? ?????? ????????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??????? ???
00: ?????? ????? ????????? ????? ???????? ???????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???????? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ???????
00: ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ?? ???????? ??????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ?????? ?? ??? ??????? ?? ????? ??? ??????
00: ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??????? ????????? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ?????? ???????? ? ?? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ??????
00: ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ????????
00: ?????? ???? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??????? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ??????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ??????
00: ?? ?????? ??? ??????? ??? ? ??? ????? ???????
Segment:9 Conclusion.
00: ?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ??
00: ????? ??? ?? ?????? ? ?? ?????? ??? ??????? ???? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ?????? ??????
00: ???? ???????. ???? ???? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??????
00: ??? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???????? ??? ???? ??????? ??? ?????? ??? ??????? ?? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??????? ???????? ??? ??? ??????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ???
00: ??????? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ???? ??? ? ????? ??? ???????? ??????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??
Segment:1 Introduction.
SAADIA YACOOB: [music] I also just wanted to say what an incredible honor and privilege. This is for me, this conversation, I mean, you and I go way back. You've been my mentor since I was an undergrad. And so, you know, to have this opportunity to have a conversation with you about your journey, some of which, you know, I have read about,
SAADIA YACOOB: you know, we've had conversations about, but to kind of really be able to sit and unpack it and hear from you and ask you more questions. Things that I've, you know, been intrigued by is really such an honor and privilege for me.
AMINA WADUD: So let me start with the minutes on the regime. Bismillah-ir-Rahman-ir-Rahim, I began as I always begin in the name of Allah whose grace I seek in this and all other matters. I actually want to start with the little snippet because Dr. Souad came to visit me when I took a sneak visit to see my family for the first time since the pandemic. And I asked her advice with regard to trying to get a kick start on queer Islamic studies and theology. And she said something which still resonates with me, she said, just act like it already is. And that was so profound, she said, because we just started working on the encyclopedia as if it was there, you know, there were a few people and, you know, they just would communicate on the grounds of this idea. And that was so moving because actually, this encyclopedia is one of the groundbreaking developments in the area of Islamic cultures and gender studies. So it was very nice to have her bring me forward from the place of the idea to the place where there is a great deal of substance behind it. So I am even more excited about doing this interview because I want to be a part of that important history.
SAADIA YACOOB: You know, in so many ways, for me, you are such an integral part of the history of both Islamic studies as a field, but also some feminist studies, so Qur'anic studies, so many different fields in the study of Islam. And so it's really, you know, I think, such an incredible honor and privilege for, you know, for so many of us to be able to hear your voice and your story for the work that you have been doing, you know, for so many decades now and have influenced so many generations of scholars.
Segment:2 Q1: "Where do you see the field now?".
SAADIA YACOOB: So I wanted to, you know, begin by asking you, you know, where do you see the field now? And I know you sit-in so many different fields and fields. So I, you know, kind of leave that up to you to define what you see as a field or multiple fields if you want to go in that direction. But just, you know, because you have been somebody who has been a part of this conversation for so long. I'd love to, you know, get your perspective on where do you see things now in terms of the study of islam? Quranic studies, women and gender studies in islam?
AMINA WADUD: Well, you know, when I got my master's and PHD, there was not even an institution granting a degree in Islamic studies. So my degree technically is in Near Eastern studies and Arabic because those were the two umbrella disciplines that allowed me to do the kind of research that I was interested in. And over time, you know, the development of Islamic studies as a degree in its own right started to take some root and to develop. But at a certain point for me, it was very clear, unfortunately, that the area of Muslim women's studies was not moving at the pace that I was interested in. So I literally retired from US academia 16 years ago because of, you know, the trajectory that I saw for my life. I did not see the US academy as accommodating it. Now I should say that I live in Indonesia now. And actually, I have returned to academia. And one of the reasons is because Indonesia has an interesting take on the whole notion of education and Islam. That allows for a more seamless wedding and they have progress in the area of gender studies. In fact, I met my first man who was over, you know, you know, in Islam and gender studies department. And one of the universities for a conference that I was invited to before the pandemic. So there is progress in other places in the world that I want to kind of bring some attention to when we think about the field because it was difficult for people, the languages who don't have the word gender, for example. It was difficult for them to accept it. But you know, I'm OK also with the word women's studies. But I really needed to see a dynamic meeting between Islamic studies and awareness of gender as a category. And I felt that in the context of the US we were, we were just not pushing ahead with that. So I chose to put my attention and my energy more in the field of public education and activism. It has moved. Fortunately, there are, you know, established programs that are able to deal with it, or at least to have people take a PhD and their interest is in this area. So you know, the reality that, you know, in my generation, we had to slide through whatever the old boys network was available to us. And then we had to do what we always do. The bridge called my back. We had to make a way where there wasn't a way. And when it started to turn around. And a younger scholars began to enter into the field, I think it did start to expand, and it's considered a legitimate area. And some of the problems that I remember at the time that I chose to, you know, to take early retirement was that women's studies did not have a way to embrace Islamic studies, and Islamic studies refused to embrace women's studies. And that meant that if you were doing something, you were often having to do it on the edges of two very powerful disciplines that had there. Own sort of research trajectories that did not overlap, so you had to be that bridge. And I think that now it's better, you know, even in the context of the US and that the burgeoning of really qualitative publications makes me feel more comfortable to say that even though it wasn't there when I got my degree, it is really established well so much of this for me is,
SAADIA YACOOB: you know, I can see what you're saying, that things have changed so much because for me coming in, you know, and sort of developing as a scholar in this kind of late 2000s. My experience in some ways is so different because I felt like I had a community of scholars, scholars who were mentors like you and Kecie Ali or Juliane Hammer and and you know, and others. But then also, you know, peers who I felt like I was in conversation with. And now that, you know, we're kind of moving forward, you know, starting to publish our own books, that very much feels like community. But in some ways, also a lot of what you're describing is this feeling of alienation in these different fields still resonates for me so much this way in which, you know, outside of this community of scholars who work on Islam and gender, I often find that people with, you know, in Islamic studies more broadly and still having to answer this question of why is this relevant, right? Like either gender is not relevant, as you know, as a category of analysis or gender is not relevant for the pre-modern or gender doesn't matter. Like what does it tell us? The inability to see why the study of gender actually contributes to the broader conversations in the field, right? and not just to, you know, people sort of making it into a gender thing. And also, you know, similarly, when I was in grad school taking classes in women and gender studies, the way in which I felt like people often could not engage with my work, like what I got was this kind of really odd patronizing like, I'm so glad you're doing this, but no ability to actually engage my work, you know? And so I you know that that kind of sense of alienation that you're describing, I very much resonates with me, but I'm so very grateful that, you know, all the work that you have done and others have done over the years has produced a kind of community. That there is a space where I feel a sense of belonging, where my work, you know, has interlocutors and is seen as valuable.
AMINA WADUD: I basically say there is no aspect of reform Islam or Islamic reform Islamic thought that is complete without a gender analysis so that the area of gender in Islamic studies is in fact, the most advanced. So that's the way I'm going to cover it from now on because it is we're not in all circus. We are part of the conversation and we're also part of the conversation of the way in which we interrogate the legacy. !invisible!, your work in particular. You know, you're giving a particular reading, you know, within the hanafi school, hanafi, right? Not Hannibal, they always get those two confused. I'm such an outsider. You're giving a particular reading within the hanafi school, but this is on the basis of the trajectory of the hanafi school and its own internal discourse. And all you're saying is there is perspective on that discourse that we can learn when we unpack what are the gender locators within it. So we have not only progressed the field of Islamic studies by what we call the production of new knowledge, but we've also. Brought a lens to this just wonder, as an erudite, you know, intellectual legacy, bringing out new aspects of it by making gender into a critical tool for the analysis. And I, I kind of like that. I don't know. I mean, I'm very much wedded to the traditional Islamic thought. So I don't feel that I would be complete if I started off in women and gender studies and then went back into Islam, which people do, and they do very well. It's just for me, my immersion within the Islamic intellectual tradition was always gendered. It's, you know, even if it wasn't part of the conversation, it was always gendered, and after a while I realized, oh, we need to make that part of the conversation as well.
Segment:3 Q2: "How did you come to writing your first book?".
SAADIA YACOOB: What I mean? Talking about the way in which, you know, when you first got your degree and started, you know, conceptualize over your dissertation, wrote it. And then eventually your first book, which was really so groundbreaking for the field. You know, pretty much every course I teach something from that first book or your second book that is in there because I tell people, you can't really talk about Islamic studies broadly if we're doing put on, if we're doing women gender studies, right? I mean, without, you know, thinking about your work and how much that has influenced the field. But I wanted to get a sense from you of, you know, how did you come to writing that first book and particularly, you know, conceptualizing of the seer and the reading of the Quran through a gendered lens?
AMINA WADUD: Well, the reality is I came from a place of absolute innocence. I wasn't. I wasn't making waves. I mean, I tell people again and again because it's still true. I fell in love with the Quran within the first six months that I was Muslim just by reading an English translation that today I cannot even abide. And it's set me on a path now when I look back on it because it's almost 50 years since, you know, the year it took my Chardin. Now, when I look back on it, I can see the steps all made sense. But I didn't. I didn't see the full trajectory. So I went into Quranic studies because I was in love with the Quran and I took for my master's and PhD studies at an institution, the University of Michigan, that had a very rich program in the languages of the region. Because the area studies and the language studies, literature and all that, that was the of inroads in into Islam. And I mean, I didn't I didn't try for any number of institutions. I only tried for this one institution because it was immersed, immersed in the languages of the region, not just Arabic, but also Hebrew, Persian, Turkish old manuscript reading and that kind of thing. So I felt like these were keys to unlock the mysteries of the Quran that had touched my heart. And I wanted to have as many of those keys under my belt, and as a consequence, of course, I did things like, you know, early on and understanding the whole field of fear and how that works. And yet when I would read them, I couldn't find my voice, and I was told when I got to the end of my dissertation, I kind of jumped forward because that is the first book. So in a way, it'll loop back around. But I was told that what I was doing wasn't really a dissertation because a dissertation was supposed to sort of point to a problem or an issue and then spend a lot of time talking about how those who had gone before us addressed this issue or this problem, and they didn't. So what was I going to do? And I and I wasn't I wasn't pushing for something on the grounds of knowing that it should also be there. I was only pushing from the heart that said, but this is the question. I need questions answered with regard to the Quran and the phenomena that is, woman. That's why my first book is called Quran and woman in the singular. It should be called Quran and gender. And I didn't know enough. And the was the absence of sexual stereotyping in the koran, because that was the thing that I had noticed at first. And that is that culturally, you know, I'm entering into Islam. I enter into Islam, and I'm already an adult. I'm 20 years old. And at an undergrad and at the University and studying. And you know, I continued my studies and immersed myself in Arabic from that moment forward. But I. I wanted to. Demonstrate how when I read the koran, I don't see the sex role stereotyping going on. Now it's funny because when the Quran also points to realities that exist, you know, in the culture, you know, around the time of the revelation, you know, infanticide female babies being buried alive, there are indications larger than what I was seeing that there are problems with regard to gender. But the Quran did not participate in what I call the rhetoric of othering on the basis of gender. And I still haven't even talked about this as much as it just keeps coming back to me. And that is that the Quran does in fact talk about and even participates in conversations that indicate unequal relations. But it does not rhetorically address females within the of heteronormative binary that we're all stuck in. It does not address the female and the male as if there is a necessary hegemony. Essentially there are situations. And those situations are talked about, they even supported, et cetera. And I kept experiencing something from the Quran that I was not experiencing in the tough literature at all. At all, it took me years before I began to state that we don't have a record of women's intellectual responses to the Quran until the 19th century. And that doesn't mean that just because it was a woman doing it that they were doing a gendered reading, as you know. But it seemed to me that, you know, in the field of hermeneutics and all of that, that reminds us that people read, speak, think, listen, you know, hear speech from a location. And as human beings from an embodied location, it occurred to me that, you know, there might have been something missing, but I didn't realize that it was so overt until after I'd finished the dissertation and after I had edited it to make that small volume. And looking back over it retrospectively, I thought, it's so easy to just point that out. Like, you know, maybe something is missing from the way in which we approach the war and if we don't have, you know, the female voice. So I went from two things intuition and baraka, because the Baraka of it is still something for which I am grateful. There were, there were no pointers for me. I didn't take women's studies in graduate school at all. The only courses I took in women's studies I took as an undergrad before I entered into Islam as my, you know, field for the future and a career. I took no classes in gender studies, so I didn't have any camaraderie. To push me towards where, you know, where I end up. But I continue to be embodied. And because of it, when I didn't hear myself in that discourse, then the only way I could refer to that discourse for the sake of a dissertation was to refer to it to show the absence of an engagement with gender. And yet I wasn't writing about Tessier. My interest was not intellectually interfere. I love to have her, but my interest was in the Quran. And so making a way through the field of discourses that have happened with regard to the Quran was not necessarily. The a tool that helped me to get at what it was that was such a burning, internal, intuitive matter for me. And that's really very fundamental and that is, I believe, the parents expressions with regard to its own universal guidance all times, all places, all people, et cetera, et cetera. So therefore, it has to be for me. Little known me, right? It wasn't grandiose, just little old me. And yet when I look in the literature, I am really, really absent and I thought, am I absent in the court? And to the same extent that I'm absent in this literature, which has become, for many people, a crutch to their being able to read the court and like, you can't read it unless you reference, you know, the literature and the like. And so it was a battle that I did I was fighting until after it was done. And then, you know, I get to look back on the pathway to making known the questions that I had as a part of more than just the personal or the selfish, you know, intellectual inquiry. I realize that it's bigger than me. So, you know, a lot of it was, you know, intuition and Baratta because I, you know, I I didn't see it coming. You know, if I look where I am now or where you know, the work has gone to now. It seems natural, but I didn't. I didn't see it. I really didn't. I tell the story often to people that, you know,
SAADIA YACOOB: I was sitting in the mustard one day reading your book and, you know, and somebody came to me and was like, that, you should not read this book like, you know, it's going to lead you astray. And you know, and it just shocked me because I was like, but what is it? What it's saying is so empowering to me as a Muslim woman, right? The fact that, you know, there there is a kind of, you know, that the Quran is not endorsing necessarily. It's not saying that what is divinely mandated are these centralized notions of gender and gender roles. And you know, and things of that nature are so empowering.
SAADIA YACOOB: So it spoke to so many of us because so many of us also found ourselves completely invisible in that kind of masjid rhetoric. As well as that they've seen literature, which I, you know, couldn't read at that point. But later, once I was able to, I was like, wow, you know, the only way you can see yourself as if you can somehow imagine that the conversation about the men also includes you, you know, and then sometimes it doesn't. And all of that. And I love to hear from you how you moved from that first book to the second, because for me, as a you know, somebody who has read both of those books multiple times and has taught them all. So I find so inspiring and incredible the ways in which I can see your trajectory as a thinker and as a scholar from the one book to the next and how much the second book shows both your own the development of your own thought, you know from when you first wrote that book, but also the interlocutors that you had after you wrote that first book and how much you were thinking with them in that second book.
Segment:4 Q3: "How did you move from the first book to the second?".
SAADIA YACOOB: So I'd love to hear about, you know, your journey from that first to the second book? And then also what did you have in mind as you were writing that second book?
AMINA WADUD: Well, you know, I think it's a, you know, it's a sort of like a truism that when you finish with your dissertation, if you haven't already produced a few articles from that research as you're going along, you're supposed to do something to get that research out into a book. And I literally could not get a job in the United States. I was, I would say, quantified, you know, hardcore hijabi. And you know, when I, you know, first joined the US university after the stint in Malaysia, there were no hijabs in the field of Islam. And, you know, Muslim studies, you know, it was, it was. It was just not there, you know? And so that created a sort of a political block. And so again, by the blessing of allah, I ended up in Malaysia and Malaysia was just starting the international Islamic university and I was one of the first PhD there. As a matter of fact, it was female and. You know, the context of Malaysia, which is right next door to me now in a place where I frequent the context of Malaysia, did something for my faith that all the eight years of graduate school just could not do, even though I was immersed in the Muslim community, I I ran the little newsletter that came out of the mosque. I, you know, I would run the sisters halacha over the week. I mean, I was immersed in the Muslim community. I wasn't as strange as a Muslim in graduate school, but going to Malaysia took the abstract and theological work that I had been doing for the sake of the PhD and catapulted it out into the world of what we now call lived realities and the establishment of Muslim personal status law. Now the law is not my area. I work with great colleagues, comrades and friends to learn the ways in which my own particular field of Islamic studies or ethnic studies, I mean, contributes to that conversation. But I had no way to take the conversation that I was making and to make it real, except for myself personally. And to realize that the construct of the law, especially as it's implemented by the state today. Well, first of all, it's constructed by many parts and one of those parts is the court. And so stripping back the layers of, you know, gender reading in the court and has become a part of this movement. And that gave me what I would call currency in the real world. And that really inspired me, irrespective of what would happen with regard to the US academy. But of course, after three years in Malaysia, I did return and I did get a regular, you know, tenure track job and I did keep going to tenure and I did keep going to full professor, you know, before I retired. And that's when. The second book began to materialize because I would present papers at professional groups, I would be invited to universities, I would be invited by student groups, which, you know, for some reason I really love because they were so enthusiastic about the first book. And I would also do stuff with regard to the confessional community. At the time, I wasn't blacklisted, so I could still do things, you know, within the confessional community. So I was producing a lot of thought on a lot of issues like the haditha paradigm and everything. And you know, they're like, you know, you're in the academy you're supposed to publish. So other than a few articles here and a few chapters here and all of that, I really hadn't pushed myself towards a second book. And I realized I need to do that. And maybe the way to do it is simply to bring together work that I've already done that has not been published. So that was the entire game plan. It wasn't really very creative. If I were editing it, I would make a lot of differences in terms of how it's structured. And I would rein me in the chapter on Muslim women's studies and the chapter on the new paradigm, in my estimation, are too long and they really need to, you know, there are just too many sidebars, you know? But it was it was necessary to move forward as far as publications go and in particular because chapter 6 and inside the gender jihad is sort of like put on a woman to. It developmentally, I was challenged by other progressive thinkers about this love that I have for the court and because basically they wanted to portray that love as a blind spot, you know, like you're not reading critically like you wouldn't be able to refute the text in any way, you know. So I had to think, am I addicted to this love to such an extent that I am blinded? And it took me. I mean, it literally took a number of years with a number of concrete developments to work on, you know, being able to say no to the text and choosing verse 434 to do that with because in my gut, I was already at the know. But as an academic, as an intellectual and as a believer, none of those gave me permission to do that. And so I was in one of those bifurcated locations where in my heart, in my gut and my soul, I do not believe you can beat a woman. Full stop. So what am I doing, so what I did in Qur'anic and woman was more of apologia. But that apology also becomes a part of what I call the four point methodology for understanding that it is necessary sometimes to say no to the implementation of a verse in the context of the implications of that verse as we know it now, based on live realities and the underlying principles of justice and human dignity.
AMINA WADUD: That was a beautiful experience, but it was also very painful because I didn't. There was a moment where I didn't want to let go of this bifurcation where I had some conversations intellectually, academically and spiritually. But I had, at the gut level a whole other thing going on, and I didn't know how to bridge those. And I didn't want to lie because it wasn't going to serve me at the deepest level of my soul. So I was pushed into it by, you know, sort of my own romanticism. And mercifully, I was able to do it, and I'm much happier with having done it in a very tedious manner because the four levels are very clear and I can recite them off the top of my head. Whereas for some things, the evolution within them happened so happenstance or so haphazardly that I kind of didn't know what was coming until it was there. And I look back as we were talking earlier, I look back and I say, oh, OK, that's where it's all going. But with this one it was, it was really very intentional. And the other part of it was locating myself within the struggle for gender justice as a reality for four Muslim women in lots of different areas. So that's pretty much all that the second book covers.
Segment:5 Q4: "Give us a sense of other figures in the field.".
SAADIA YACOOB: I wanted to ask you, though, as you're talking about you're talking about books and your journey moving from dissertation to the first book. And then the second book several times you mentioned people that you were in conversation with and have continued and others that you've been in conversation with, you know, even since the, you know, the second book. And I wanted to ask you to just kind of maybe give us a sense of both who some of these other figures were in the field that you were in conversation with or continue to be in conversation with. And you know, and just reflections on how your, you know, conversations with them, your engagement with them also, you know, sort of both impacted you, but also then impacted the field.
AMINA WADUD: Yes, and in this way, once again, I was extremely, extremely blessed. And that's why I have the series friends along the way. I've just met some of the most amazing people, people that I feel so grateful to be on the Plan with them at the same time. In reality, when I finished my PHD, first of all, I walked from my PhD pregnant with my fifth child. And so that means that in graduate school, I had zero social life. You know, after I married the second time, I wasn't editing the newsletter and I wasn't running women Holocaust or anything, I was just trying to get the dissertation done and try to take care of my family. But when I left the US for my first job, which was in Malaysia, I, I connected with people whose trajectory in life has just, you know, made my life feel like, you know, I have a purpose. For example, zainab Anwar is just now retiring. And when we met more than 30 years ago. And we started with six other women, AWS all together, we started sisters in Islam, which was one of the first pro faith Muslim women's organizations in the world. That was not that was not a wing of a men's organization in a very conservative, neo conservative way. There was a set of. !invisible!, overlapping. Concerns that allowed for it was also one of the first Muslim women's organizations that understood the significance of progressive scholarship to the on the ground activism and the policy reform work that they were doing. So they brought all kinds of people there. I met first abdullahi Naim through a sisters in Islam function. I met Doctor zeb Amir Hosseini, with whom I still work. In fact, I have a meeting with her tomorrow and allowing for me to have my own kind of abstract reasoning. And at the same time as I said, to tie it to the actual trajectory of these policy reforms and sort of constitutional challenges and international instruments and all that kind of stuff was one of those blessings because otherwise I would never have been able to make the link I was so far out there on the abstraction route. But one of the other delights, of course, was being invited to South Africa in 1994, which was, you know, two years after I left Malaysia and my South African friends and family are amazing people. I definitely fell in love with Fred isaak when I first met him, because to me, intelligence is typekit most interactive thing that a human being can have. And his work over the years, you know, also challenged me to get a little bit up to date with regard to decolonial studies and the like. Sadia Shaikh was a student, if you can believe it. I just love this about knowing her as a student, and she wowed the whole committee when she did her or her dissertation and, you know, to be invited to be a part of that. Even though I was not in her institution, I was an outside reader and they all agreed that it was excellent. So that's a budding scholar whom I have known, you know, since, you know, almost about the time, well before she was married, you know? But then I've also known her as she established herself after the PHD, as, you know, a mom and a wife and, you know, professor. But what happened in the context of the US was very interesting because people like aisha Ali, Juliana Hamer and Laurie silver when they did this mischief. They really gave me greater confidence in the collegiality of the discourses about gender in the context of the US. They don't all do the same thing right now. Laurie, this is an amazing novelist. I'm reading her third novel as we speak as a matter of fact, but they made me feel like I was a part of a woman's corner in the world of Islam and Islamic studies, and we could talk about every kind of topic because there were a similar faith based motivations. But also they are all very serious in terms of their scholarship and the contributions they've made in different areas that they were. So that's been a very lovely, been a very lovely thing. Recently, I have met Ismail and Robert from Morocco and Zaire jouyet from Tunisia. They both worked with the musawwir movement, and it's really nice to have, you know, native Arabic speakers who are very, very erudite in their work and very, very progressive, challenging in the work that they contribute, and I'm still learning from them. I just wanted to name a few of the scholars who came after me, like Jerusha Lamptey, Tanner, who has a new last name now, who works on an interfaith dialogue analysis of the Qur'anic, and Zahra Ayyub, whom I just met, who works on ethics. I'm just smitten by her work. There's a recent book out. I wish I could jump up and get it from my shelf, you know, called women as imams that was produced by actually an Italian woman who's been doing scholarship and women's leadership for some time. I met her in a few conferences in Europe. Simonet seems so bad. Oh my goodness. So there is, you know, there is amazing work that's coming down the pike. But I have to confess that I don't know the youngest generation. So people who are, you know, students now because I left US academia, I literally in 2006. So that means a lot of years have passed that things are going on that I haven't been a part of.
SAADIA YACOOB: It does happen that if you're not a part of the US academy or connected with it, somehow it's very hard to sort of connect and with of what's what's, you know, what's happening, who are the students and you know, who are at these conferences that are so incredibly expensive that it's very hard to, you know, to go and things of that nature. But I really appreciated this.
Segment:6 Q5: "What are your hopes for the field in the next decade?".
SAADIA YACOOB: You know, you kind of giving us a sense of this, you know, so many different generations of scholars that you have been in conversation with and the way in which they've, you know, shaped you also as a thinker, but you very much also shaped them as thinkers and scholars. And you know, and that kind of brings us to this moment in terms of where the field is now, which, you know, you reflected on a little bit earlier the ways in which you see, you know, a kind of gender studies engagement or, you know, the study of gender within Islamic studies, having more of a sense of community really exciting and incredibly groundbreaking work that is coming out, you know, very similarly to what you described. I often feel so excited by the scholarship that I read that is coming out because it's asking these questions that I feel like the broader field is not asking, you know, like it's like this question of, OK, so what are the relations between people? How are those relations? Imagine how, how did we how do they think about ethical engagement, you know, in hierarchical relationships, what are, you know? So there's so many really rich conversations that are being opened up by the scholarship that is being done in, you know, gender and sexuality studies in relation to Islam. But I wanted to get your thoughts on, you know, where do you see the field in the next decade? You know, you've seen the evolution of the field in so many different ways. You know, over the years, you know, both, where do you kind of see it going next? Or also what? What are your hopes, you know, for the field in the next decade or so?
AMINA WADUD: I think I'm very much inspired by the critical and quantitative inquiry done by Dr. kecia Ali with regard to how male scholars there still holed up in the little boy's club. And I said. Little boys, intentionally, they are not producing the work that is as exciting as the work that's coming through on gender and sexuality, and they're also not acknowledging the progress of gender and sexuality as an aspect of study within Islamic studies. And in a way, they're kind of like weighing us down. And the reality, of course, is that the younger male scholars are the literally not burdened by the lack of competence with regards to gender and sexuality that existed in the generations two generations before them. They simply are into it. And so when I meet people by the buy who do certain things like Ali or Rumi, who is a historian, was part of a course that I was invited to do a unit for also virtually during the pandemic on queer Islamic thought and his work on history already because he does all that esoteric stuff. So, you know, just absolutely smitten with him. But I also noticed the ease with which he discussed certain representations of with regard to sexuality from his own historical location that not the main area that he's focusing on, but he's comfortable in his own skin. And I think that that's what's happening. I think that there is a generation that's coming both in terms of activism and in terms of scholarship. There's a generation that's coming that simply don't bow down to the tropes that imprisoned us within the field of some studies. You know, even in my generation. And I look forward to the free flow of conversations that are not afraid to include the element of sexuality, to include the elements of gender, to include the discourse about race, to interrogate the locations with regard to class able as imperialism. I mean, you know, there's just this free flow of conversation that's happening in a generation that I'm not immediately in touch with, with the exception of the fact that I'm teaching now over here in Indonesia and I'm a little bit displaced because I really don't have the language to, I think, do as good a job as I would like to have happen. But you know, they're interested to have me, so we'll work it out. But I really hope that what Dr. Kecia Ali observed with regard to scholars in my generation and even in the generation after me will not occur for the next generations, that there will be a much more conscious inclusion in the conversation of voices that in the past, we might have considered these voices to be subaltern. But as I said earlier, I can't remember. It was part of what we were recording or not. I am now saying that Islamic feminism is the most progressive discourse and reformist Islam period, and that no matter what area that you're working on, if you are not also interrogating gender, you're not doing your work. I'm just going to say that. And the reason is because when you have had to create the inroads because they simply weren't there, you realize that part. You know, it's like the gatekeepers, you know, part of what was keeping you from making the inroads with these arbitrary gatekeepers. And so what I see amongst people in the generation that you will be teaching, what I see amongst them is a greater readiness for that. So therefore, the courses need to be out there. The books, the articles, the webinars that the discourse needs to be happening in order to keep, you know, the, you know, the best and the brightest amongst us bright. They don't I don't think they're going to continue to allow themselves to be undermined with regard to the need to interrogate how these things do intersect. That's just from an outsider point of view, you know, sort of guessing added on the basis of personal contact, but not on the basis of having any. I don't know where the field is, to be honest.
SAADIA YACOOB: Yeah, I think this is, you know, I very much share your hope that, you know, there will be this kind of growth in the field more broadly in the sense of incorporating so much of the scholarship on, you know, in Muslim feminist studies. Because in some ways, yeah, those networks endure, it's like, you know, there are increasingly I find people who don't like, you're describing that people who don't necessarily focus on gender themselves, but they see the value in the scholarship of, you know, of those of us who do that work and want to incorporate that into their own scholarship, into their teaching. And you know, and to be, you know, conversation partners. But then there is those folks that just endure, they just are see themselves as like, you know, the real field and have these kinds of, you know, walls that are so hard to traverse. But, you know, hopefully once you know your kind of, you know, you get enough people who see the value of the work and want to engage with it, I'm hoping that'll make you know that group feel less and less able to uphold, you know, these exclusions that you know, they're so insistent on.
AMINA WADUD: I would be really interested in your take on this because you are, you know, you're coming into the positions of authority in a time frame that's very distant from me. So how is it that you are experiencing at least? I mean, maybe I'm fantasizing, but at least it seems to me that there is a greater integration. There's a greater hunger for that integration and that this literature that's being produced, that's making that integration seamlessly, even though that wasn't true even as little as 10 or 15 years ago. So I kind of need you to catch me up to date in terms of on the field.
SAADIA YACOOB: A lot of what you're sensing and describing, I think for me resonate in that I can see, you know, those shifts and changes that have happened over the years that you're describing, even just, you know, from when I first got interested in graduate study, not even necessarily going to graduate school to where I am now. I feel like there is very much this supportive network and community that I'm a part of. You know, they're certainly in my own journey. There have been individual mentors like you and others who really helped me along the way. But it doesn't feel like just individual mentors anymore. It feels like there's actually a community that I'm a part of, and I increasingly find people, you know, in the field more broadly in Islamic studies more broadly who are interested in the work that I'm doing, for example, or other scholars source or more junior scholars are doing, where you can see that they can actually understand why the conversations that we're having, the arguments that we're making, the questions that we're asking are really valuable for the questions that they're asking. They can see those connections. And I'm hoping that that will sort of continue and travel, you know, over the years. And I think there's, you know, our own kind of exclusions as a kind of subfield, right, that we need to sort of think about. I think there's a way in which race has not really been a part of the subject of inquiry in Muslim feminist studies, both sort of interrogating our own sort of racial position as well as. The questions that were asking. I know there's some really incredible work that is now kind of starting to happen that is thinking actually about Blackness and, you know, in the pre-modern literature, something that I think is very, very new. Until recently, there weren't too many, you know, scholars who are thinking about this question. And then there's the whole question I think about, you know, queer studies and sexuality studies that I think is, you know, there's a conversation that is happening, but I often feel that, you know, those who are having the gender conversation are not always having that conversation with those who are, you know, asking questions about sexuality. And you know, and you know, nonbinary, you know, individuals and you know and sort of thinking about all of these questions, which I think is, you know, sadly very much part of what happened in women and gender and sexuality studies more broadly. And, you know, in the academy, right? I mean, those same kinds of boundaries are being maintained sadly, in our own kind of subfield. So I think I'm excited about the fact that we are now established enough as a field that we can actually start interrogating ourselves. You know, it takes I feel like it takes a certain amount of you establishing yourself to then be able to turn critique onto yourself and say, OK, what are the exclusions that I'm creating? But at some level, I feel like, you know, that network that you're describing really still continues to endure of people. You know, it really depends on the spaces that I'm in. I often sort of actively choose to be in spaces that are supportive and nurturing. But then because I, you know, I'm also the of early Islamic law person, I find myself in these spaces with other people who see themselves as scholars of Islamic law, and oftentimes those are very nurturing and supportive spaces. But certainly, I've had these experiences where you go in and it just, you know, that feeling of like what you do is not, you know, you're imposing questions, you're not really engaging, you know, Islamic law. And at some level, you know, they can't really challenge the material that I'm reading and how I'm reading it because I have the kind of linguistic skills as well as familiarity with the legal tradition to be able to do a lot of what they do. But the questions that I bring in, so I you know, there are times when I find myself in, in conversations where I'm like, OK, so this is what I'm thinking about. These are the questions that I'm asking. This is what I'm arguing and I feel like the conversation is like this, you know, like, I am having one conversation, they're having another conversation and I'm just like, you're not getting it. They're like, you're not getting it right. So, so and you know, and those are, I think, are the kinds of exclusions that I think still continue to exist where people just don't see the point in the work that so many of us do. And now they can't necessarily accuse us of not knowing Arabic well enough or not knowing, you know, whatever language well enough, not knowing the genre well enough because I think we've come to a point where so many of us have been trained, you know, both linguistically as well as, you know, texturally. But those questions that bring us that animate us, you know, that we are interested in still remain to a lot of people just, you know, honestly, it feels to me like they think it's uninteresting, which I'm like, I don't understand how you could think that like, you know, it's to me, these are such animating conversations. They're such, you know, they're so rich and in what they're interested and thinking about and asking. But I think when you have a certain way of thinking of what you think is important, what counts as scholarship and things of that nature that are very confining, right? They define what constitutes scholarship in a very confining way. It's, you know, often those people are not able to find the work that we do to be valuable. And then the exclusions start right because they happen in these everyday mundane ways of, OK, we're putting together, you know, x number of people to come and present their work. And then you want to bring the people that you think are interesting, and you think that everybody who does work on gender and sexuality is not interesting, right? So I still definitely feel those exclusions. My hope is similar to what you were saying is that I think there will be enough of a community, not just, you know, the community of those of us that do this work, but also those that very much support us and see tremendous value in the work that we do, that that community will continue to grow to where the even if they. Want to exclude us, they can't, right? I mean, it'll get to the point similar to what we've seen with some of, you know, the worth that kisha has been kishida has been doing where, you know, you put that conference together, somebody is going to ask you, where are the people who work on gender and sexuality? Where are the people who are working on race? Like, why are they not here? So then, even if you don't want to invite those people, you'll invite them because you don't want that question posed at you, right? Because you don't have any answer, any good answer for why those people are not there, right? So that is what I'm hoping will happen over the next decade or two decades,
AMINA WADUD: I think to call them out, you know, I mean, we have to call them out. We have to say no, all-male panels and we have to look, ask them to look critically at their own citations and the like. And I was in a conference once. Actually, we were in San Diego of all places. So some places you end up with. And there was a very progressive Shia scholar. And when Mir husseini asked him something that had to do with gender, he basically said to her, we're having a real conversation over here. You know, how would you bring this topic up? Well, I was on the panel with him and I spoke after him. So of course, I had to call him out about, you know, encapsulating the part of the conversation. Minus gender is being real in anything with gender as being something else, you know? So you have to call them out. I mean, I didn't mean it in any personal way. But what happens is when you have a respect for this vast intellectual legacy that is Islam, you have respect for the sources, you have respect for the sources in their own languages and stuff like that. You go through the study to prepare yourself to be able to investigate them. You see how rich it is. So there's no undermining of the value that's within that. Sometimes people misread me to say because I am critical with regard to the absence of gender as a category of thought and some of that work that it means that all that work has been thrown out. By no means is that the case. However, when you have in our generation, we are now at the beginning of the third decade of the 21st century, when at this time, we still have to make a case for the interrogation of race, class, gender, sexuality, embolism, linguistic groups and the like. We still have to make those interrogations. It says something about the basic and fundamental human dignity, and that the purpose of the study of Islam has always been about the enhancement of the human being. It's not for just, you know, like the abstractions that I still love. It is also about qualitatively about information as a part of transformation because it is both descriptive and prescriptive. So when we are doing scholarship. And we are participating in these kinds of marginalization, we do a disservice to the scholarship, really. And so that's, you know, that's why I say, you know, you have to call them out in its gentle ways as possible, like the work that keesha did because she did it in a way that was just like emotionally very flat, you know? And yet when I see it, I get, like, very emotionally passionate.
SAADIA YACOOB: I love the numbers. It's like, you can't fight with the numbers. I look through your bibliography. I counted it all up.
AMINA WADUD: It was so profound to do it that way because it's like irrefutable, you know? So, yeah, and I mean, it was not it's not like, what happened with me if I'd be there? You know, I'm just an angry black woman. And of course, you know, we have reason for being who we are. But yeah, I mean, when it gets to the point where people understand that what we are trying to do is to create, I love your words, to create intellectual communities, and that the purpose of our discourse is to produce new knowledge because the world is always changing. And so knowledge has to continue to be produced. And even this interrogative reading of the classical sources and the neo, the pre-modern sources and all that, even that kind of reading that we're doing. It's a kind of reading that actually pumps new life even into those text. So, yeah, I mean, you know, I'm grateful that you are here. I'm grateful that you have taken up the task that you've taken up in exactly the way that you're doing it because I would never have been able to go and do that at school and do all the stuff that you're doing. So I'm happy to have you here, because it makes it possible for me to learn more without having to do all the hard work.
SAADIA YACOOB: Well, I mean, honestly, you know, for me, it's like, it's really the path that you and others have made for, you know, younger scholars like me to be able to walk this path. I, they like so much of what I am, would not have been possible at all if it had not been for the paths that you and others have created for people like me, both in terms of the opportunity to actually do the work that we're doing to ask those questions and the fact that, you know, to a certain extent, people might push back, but not in the ways that you know, that you're describing of what you experience, you know, when you were writing your first book, but also in that. You know, there's a kind of, you know, knowledge base, right, that we have sort of grown up as scholars reading, if I can think of it that way, right? That like there's so much scholarship that I read that got me to thinking to the point that I'm at, right? So I'm continuing a conversation. And you know, and then you're able to do particular things that you know, others might not have been able to do, but that's because they've already done that work right. That then allows you to start to ask the questions that you're asking. But I wanted to, you know, I really love the way that you're describing the role of the scholar and their responsibility to the world. And I think for me, one of the things that I love about, you know, you as a scholar and something that you know, I hope, you know, maybe hopefully post tenure to also kind of, you know, to model is the way in which to you, you as a scholar and you're living in the world is not separated, right? I feel like so much of the way in which the academy works, especially in the u.s., is that somehow scholarship is this thing that happens. Academics are these, you know, people that live in this other world. And somehow, if you are concerned with the world, concerned with what the knowledge that you're producing, what, what, what it will do in the world makes you not a real scholar, right? That somehow you don't have some kind of ethical responsibility to communities and into the world, period in which you are sitting as a scholar and and I think you really very much push against any such way of thinking about knowledge.
Segment:7 Q6: "What do you see as the implication of your scholarship?".
SAADIA YACOOB: So I wanted to ask, you know, what do you see as the implication of the your scholarship, as well as the scholarship that is being produced in women gender, sexuality studies in relation to Islam? What kind of implication does it have for people on the ground for communities, women's groups, you know, in different movements on the ground, what do you see as that kind of relationship between them, but also the implication that that scholarship has or should have for communities on the ground?
AMINA WADUD: Yeah, I was so lucky to come to Malaysia at the time that I came, and I've never belonged to any group except for sisters in Islam. Literally, I mean, maybe American religion, but I don't account that among my personal accolades, I never belong to any groups. I was not a part of the movement of musawwir, although I'm just so in love with them. And what has happened is again, looking at younger generations and people who we've been teaching in our courses on gender equality and Islam, Islam and gender justice is what this is called is to. Give an appreciation. For the breadth that is this Islamic intellectual tradition. But to relocate it. In the construct that it is because it empowers people to talk back to authorities who arbitrarily assert their authority to close off a conversation that would be inclusive of their realities. And there is nothing in life that is better than that, except for maybe children and grandchildren. I mean, this whole idea that you could we just got off a course with people from Sudan and South Sudan because they have a new government and everything. And of course, they're trying to push the same old tropes with regard to gender. So we had like 30 participants. And we did this whole course online, which was just mind boggling. But, you know, it worked out well. I'm sorry. They were in a room, and there were facilitators there, and many of us were just online. So that's how we continue with the course during the lockdowns. But to understand that people, first of all, are probably not going to become scholars of the fear or of hanafi sect, but but you can inspire in them a certain appreciation for the scholarship that they can concentrate in their own areas with regard to their particular needs and talk back to people who, as I said, arbitrarily try to assert their authority over them. That's really exciting. And for me, it was because the sisters in Islam, which started in 1987 and I came to Malaysia in 1989, and they registered after that because sisters in Islam grew to have an appreciation for progressive scholarship as part of the formula. I was given a new lease on life. I was able to have a second level of currency, which to me when I retired from US academia. I did not miss US academia at all because I was applying myself to a place where what I was applying myself to literally made a difference in people's lives in a very immediate way. And so sometimes when you go into places because I used to go into places with activists and they would basically say it's too abstract, it's too many three syllable words and all that kind of stuff. And I used it because this used to happen when I first entered into queer spaces, but we moved on. But I used to say everyone has something that they can contribute to the struggle. And you have to figure out what it is that you can contribute. I know what I can contribute. So you don't want to shut me out because of the way in which I make that contribution happens to be too many three syllable words because we're in a conversation together. And we're already a minority, you know? So I had to really have people understand that I am wedded to certain causes with regard to social justice. But I may not be the person who can give you the feedback with regard to how you put it into operation with regard to the convention for the elimination of all forms of discrimination against women or female, that may not be my strong for you. But from my strong point, I do have something to offer. And eventually, the resistance broke down because I wasn't trying to be removed simply because I do discourse with three syllable words quite frequently. You know, and yet people were like, I don't understand it. So therefore it's irrelevant. And I'm like, we are working and understanding, and you can't, you know, try to shut me out just because you don't understand. Let's work at understanding each other, you know, so those are the bygone days with regard to that. Now, it's pretty much understood. And I like them. The challenge that comes back when active is on the ground. Understand that, well, you know what? Maybe we need to have study circles for about a year. Let's get these things together. So we get some kind of grounding in what we want to do. And then they become producers, you know? But I also like when they pose questions based on realities for which I don't have an abstract answer because that means I've got work to do. So there is a dynamism that's happening there that I really think that, first of all, I basically tell people. I enjoyed my retirement, which I did because I was very active. And I was challenged intellectually, spiritually, morally, ethically, you know, sometimes physically, but I'm trying to make sure people understand I'm old now, so just don't do it. But the whole idea that a conversation can go between different parties for the same impact that has brought a lot of life to me because in the academy, you could just keep writing books, which is nice because I read them. You could just keep producing conversations that are only appropriate to graduate students, which is nice because of course, graduate students have really interesting conversations. You know, you could do all of that and all that's good and well. But to also cross over into this other realm in one way, I want to say it was not so easy, but another way I want to say it was inevitable. It was inevitable, at least for me, and the way that I proved it was to literally come up for full professor and then say, thank you, I'm never returning. And then I would often, you know, you know, I've said, well, what am I to do about income? I just had to make do what until a made away, you know? So I think that I think that being in the world as the world is. And at the same time, embracing my own nature as a little bit of an abstract theological type thinker gave me greater pluralism in the journey, which is life. Had I been, quote unquote more successful in the academy because I mean, literally, I should put it out there. I think that if I was a white guy or even a brown guy, that they would have been endowed chair for me long time ago, and that didn't happen. And because it didn't happen, I had to make my way on the margins. And as I made my way on the margins, actually, the whole universe got bigger. So it didn't close me in at all. And I'm not sure if I had been nurtured more within the academy, if I would have been equally happy. I'm not sure. I mean, I love the intellectual wisdom, but I really love the fact that I'm not bounded by it and it doesn't write the script in terms of how it is that I get to express my ideas, ask my questions, seek for answers to those questions and the like.
SAADIA YACOOB: I love this point that you're making about the challenge to you as a scholar that you, you know that it's actually challenging when you are in communities you know who haven't read everything that you've read, right? Who aren't necessarily committed to thinking about things in xyz way because that's what the field has done so far. Who then turn to you and they're like, yeah, but what about this right? Or that doesn't make sense? Or, you know, I don't agree with this and the way in which that challenges you as a scholar, you know, because we tend to think about you being challenged as a scholar only happening in the academy with other scholars, right? And don't see communities and you know, people that were in relationship with as also challenging you, right? It doesn't happen in the same ways that we see an intellectual challenges. But you know, it is incredibly I you know, I find and again, you know, I sadly the way grad school and, you know, life on the 10 year clock is it kind of makes you focused on that and that alone. So a lot of the kind of communal communal work that I used to do as kind of sadly fallen on the wayside. But, you know, to the extent that I feel like, you know, I've always felt that, you know, wanted to make a conscious effort to not end up only being friends with other academics, you know, and so being, you know, like in community and in friendships with people, you know, many of whom are not academics at all have not read a lot of this literature. I often find, you know, it's like when I'm like, OK, well, I think this right about xyz issue. And then people being like. Well, I don't know, like what about this and what about that and it's actually really challenging for me to like know how to make my point and make my argument without relying on the fact that they have read all of these other things because of which they will understand what it is that I'm trying to do. I mean, it's incredibly challenging in ways that I feel like it's not challenging when you're there at a conference presenting a paper and then somebody gets up and it's like, well, what about xyz person who's written this? And you know, what are you saying in relation to that? It's a very different kind of intellectual challenge that I can certainly see both how, you know, I can see how generative it is, you know, for you as a thinker.
AMINA WADUD: I also want you to worry about periods of time when you have to focus a little bit, even if those periods of time end up being three years, six years, something like that because you will have a life after that. And when you have a small child and you're balancing that and you're also up against one of the man's rule books, you know, like you have to cross off certain T's and dot certain I's to get across that finish line. But if you don't get across the finish line, you will never be able to go to the next thing. And that's what I tell students. I said, you know what? You have the opportunity to just be a student. The world will still be going on, and you do want to keep yourself abreast of those things, but you don't want to make it so that you get so far stretched out there that you can't complete that thing. So don't worry about it, because guess what? The world is not going to perfect itself, you know, just because you wait for your 10 year by time, 10 years time. Guess what? They're still going to be?
SAADIA YACOOB: I guess it'll still be, you know, as messed up of a world as it has been for so long.
Segment:8 Q7: "What do you see as the impact of public scholarship?".
SAADIA YACOOB: So I would love to hear your thoughts on what do you see as the impact of public scholarship? And you know, how can it have that impact or what does it need to look like in order to have an impact on, you know, for people on the ground to be in conversation with people to be a part of that struggle? What kind of role can it have and and in what ways?
AMINA WADUD: Yeah, I think I see the world as a series of overlapping circles. And, you know, whichever one is the center because of the priorities that make it central does not mean that it's isolated. It does overlap. So I think that, you know, sort of the public intellectual reality you have to remember. I don't know why this always comes to me because I'm writing right now. I'm writing a book on a progressive perspective on the five pillars. And it was based on a project that I took up a long time ago, and the publishers got back to me and said, well, what about this? And I just thought, oh, I have, I'm in the perfect place because I'm still in lockdown, so let me just go ahead and work on it. And so to say things with regard to just the five pillars, really. But I'm doing it from a progressive perspective because there's no such intro book on the five pillars. That's progressive, you know? But I say things like, you know, the performance of the prayer is actually based on the relationship between the sun and the Earth. The marking of the calendar. To begin the Islamic month of Ramadan, which we're in now, is based on the cycles of the moon, right? But there was a time when humankind thought that the Earth was the center of the universe, and that's why the only words that we have or sunrise and sunset, which by the way, are used in the. And even though the sun does not move, at least not in that way. So I just think we went from a sort of flat, two dimensional perspective on the universe to three dimensional. And now people are out into the four or five and six that I don't even understand. I'll be honest. Humankind does develop, and I think in terms of Islam, Islamic thought muslims, but not exclusively Muslims because Islamic thought is not exclusive for muslims, really. I think that we need to have an impact on public discourse, public recognition of the realities of the potential for that Islamic worldview to have an impact on the good. We are still coming out of the saddle of the last decade with the worst manifestations of sort of violent extremism, and we don't want to leave the next decade with that being the face of Islam. So there is a role to be to be played with regard to just raising the level of consciousness, but everybody is not going to be a part of every little detail of that discourse within that circle. But where those circles are overlapping, you just take those spaces and you engage in those spaces and then you go on because your circle goes on as well. And I love this that image of the overlapping circles, because sometimes we want more than is really do in the circumstances period in which we're making the contribution or we're seeking the wisdom. Sometimes there's only so much that you're going to get there. And sometimes there's only so much that you can give. And that's OK because you give your best. And what someone takes away from that is completely between them law, at least in terms of my worldview. So it's not always like everything that I say is not going to satisfy everybody because I'm going to say it in the way that feels comfortable for me. But sometimes something comes across. And I have learned to be happy with that because my sense of what is community is not that everybody does exactly everything in exactly the same way. And that's OK, because when we come together as a community, we're going to need people to do things, so I don't do it all right, so I'm happy to have them. So we don't want to look at, you know, public intellectual wisdom as if it is the answer for everything and that everybody has to do with the same way, but rather that it is part of the discourse. It's part of the community and an important part, but not the only part.
Segment:9 Conclusion.
SAADIA YACOOB: I am very grateful to have had the opportunity to know you. You know, over the years to have met you, you know, I mean, the way that we met was also so like totally one of those things where it's like that is what was intended by Allah, right? The coming together of, you know, of our lives. And you know that we've been able to sort of stay connected and very grateful for that. But I remember I dreamt about you the first night, I remember.
AMINA WADUD: That's wonderful. I do remember that that was a moment for me where
SAADIA YACOOB: I was like, wow, all right. So this is a path. I'm meant to walk, right? It's those are those moments where you're like, am I? Am I walking the right path? OK, no, I think I meant to walk this path. But really, it's such an incredible honor for me to have this conversation with you. You know, I feel like the ability to kind of sit with you and talk about where you began and how that's evolved and where you've come to, but also to get your thoughts and advice on these things that so many of us who are, you know, just kind of starting out our thinking about and wanting to, you know, get perspective on, I think that that for me really means so much. So thank you. Thank you for sharing so much.
AMINA WADUD: It was a pleasure. Thank you very much. I enjoyed it.
Language: AR.
Segment:1 Introduction.
أنا أردت فقط أن أقول يا له من شرف لا يصدق والامتياز الذي تمثله بالنسبة لي، هذه المحادثة يعني أننا أنا و انت نعود للوراء كثيرًا لقد كنت مرشدjي منذ كنت طالبة جامعية الحصول على هذه الفرصة أن أحضى بمحادثة معك حول رحلتك لقد قرأت البعض عنها أجرينا محادثات حولها ولكن أن أكون حقًا قادرة على الجلوس وتدقيقها وأن أسمع من طرفك وأسالك أسئلة أكثر، الأسئلة التي كانت تجوب مخيلتي لقد كان هذا حقا شرفًا وامتيازًا لي لذا اسمحي لي أن أبدأ أعوذ بالله من الشيطان الرجيم باسم الله الرحمان الرحيم أبدأ، كما أبدأ دائمًا باسم الله الذي أطلب نعمته في هذا وجميع الأمور الأخرى لأن الدكتورة سعاد جاءت لزيارتي عندما قمت بزيارة خفيفة لرؤية عائلتي لأول مرة منذ الجائحة طلبت نصيحتها فيما يتعلق بمحاولة الحصول على ركلة بداية بالدراسات الإسلامية وعلم اللاهوت قالت شيئا بخصوص ذلك لا يزال يتردد صداه قالت فقط تصرفي كأنه كذلك بالفعل كان ذلك عميقًا جدًا قالت ، لأننا بدأنا بالتو العمل على الموسوعة كما لو كانت موجودة كان هناك عدد قليل من الناس وكانوا فقط يتواصلون على أساس أفضل فكرة وكان ذلك مؤثرًا جدًا لأنه في الواقع ??? ???????? ?? ????? ?? ???????? ???????
?? ???? ???????? ??????? ????? ?????????? ????????? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ?? ????? ?? ????? ???????? ????????? ?????
???? ????? ?? ???????? ??????? ????????? ???????? ??? ???????? ???????? ?????? ?? ???????? ???????? ?? ????? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ??????? ?? ??????
Segment:2 Q1: "Where do you see the field now?".
?????? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ??????? ?? ??????? ???? ?? ???? ??????
??? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ??????? ????????? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?? ??? ???????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???????
???????? ???????? ??????? ? ????? ?????? ?? ??????? ????? ???? ??? ????????? ?????????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???????? ????????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ???????? ????? ???????? ???? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??
?? ???? ????? ????? ???????? ????????? ?????? ?? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ??????? ?????????? ????????? ??? 16 ?????
???? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?????????? ????????? ???????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????????? ???? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ??????? ?????????? ??? ??? ??????? ?? ?? ????????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???????? ??? ????? ??????? ????? ?? ??????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????
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???? ?? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??????? ?? ???????? ?? ??????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ???????? ????????? ????????? ?? ??????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ???????? ?? ???? ??????? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ????? ?? ???????? ???? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ???????
???? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ??????? ???? ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ?? ???? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????
?????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ?? ?? ??????? ?? ?? ???? ??????? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???????? ????????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ????
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Segment:3 Q2: "How did you come to writing your first book?".
????? ???? ????? ????? ???????? ????? ??? ??? ??????? ?? ?? ??????? ?? ??????? ?????? ???????? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ????? ?? ???????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ???????? ????? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ??????? ?? ???????
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???? ????? ?????? ???????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??????? ?????????? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????
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??????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???????? ??? ??? ???? ??????? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ????? ???? ??????? ??????? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? 20 ??? ???? ????? ??????
??? ?? ??????? ????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ?????? ??????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ??????? ??????? ????????? ?? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??????? ???????? ?? ??????? ????? ??? ?????
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??????? ??? ??? ???: ??????? ??????? ???? ??????? ?? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ????? ?? ???????? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ????????? ???? ? ?? ??? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ???
??????? ??? ??? ???: ????? ?? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ??????? ??????? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ??????? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???????? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ???????? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ?????? ???????? ??? ??????? ???? ??????? ??? ???????
??????? ??? ??? ???: ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ???????? ?????? ???? ??????? ?? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ??????
??????? ??? ??? ???: ?????????? ?? ???????? ?? ??????? ? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ??????? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??????? ? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????
?????: ? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??????? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??????
?????: ??????? ???????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????????? ?????? ?? ?????? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ??????
?????: ??? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?????
?????: ?? ????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??.. ?? ?????? ...?? ???? ???????? ??? ?? ???? ?? ?? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???????? ???????? ????? ?????? ??????? ???????? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ??????
?????: ??? ??????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??????? ??? ??????? ??????? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ??? ??????? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ?? ??? ??????? ?? ???? ??? ???
?????: ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ??????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ?????
Segment:4 Q3: "How did you move from the first book to the second?".
?????: ??? ???? ?????? ??????
?????: ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ? ????
?????: ?? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ??????? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??????? ???????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ??????? ??? ?? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ???????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ????? ?? ??????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????
?????: ?? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ???????? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????????? ?? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???????? ????????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ??????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??????? ????????? ????????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ???????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ?? ???????
?????: ????? ??????? ?? ???? ???? ??????? ????????? ???????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ????????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??????? ??? ????? ?? ???????? ?? ??? ??????? ???????? ??????
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00: 29:49.688 --> 29:50.522 ?? ??????? ?? ?????
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00: ??? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ?????? ???????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ...???????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??????? ???????? ???? ??? ?? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ????????? ???? ???? ??? ??????
00: ??? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ??????? ?? ??? ?????? ??????? 2 ?? ??????? ???????? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ??????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????
00: ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ???... ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?? ???????? ???????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ??????? ????? 434 ?????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ???
00: ???? ????????? ?????? ??????? ?? ?????? ?? ?? ??? ??????? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ???????? ??? ?? ????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?????. ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ??????? ???
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00: ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??... ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ????????? ?????? ???????? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????
00: ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ????????? ??????? ????? ??? ?
00: ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ???? ??????? ??? ?????? ??????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ????
Segment:5 Q4: "Give us a sense of other figures in the field.".
00: ?? ??? ???? ????
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00: ?? ?????? ?????? ??????? ?? ???????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ???????? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???????? ??????
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00: ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ???? ?? 30 ????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????? "????? "????? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???????? ???????? ??????? ??????? ?? ??????
00: ?? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ????????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ?????????? ????????? ...???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ???????? ???????? ????????? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ?????? ??????? ??? ??? ??????
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00: ???? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ??? 1994 ?? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ?? ???? ??????? ???? ?????? ???? ???????? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ??????
00: ?? ???? ???????? ?????? ???? ??? ???????? ??????????? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ???????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ????? ???? ????????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???????
00: ??? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ??????? ??????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ??????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??? ????????? ??? ????? ??????? ??? ?? ??? ?? ???? ???????? ??????? ???
00: ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? -------- ?????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???????? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ???????? ??????? ?? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??????? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ??????? ? ??? ??? ?????
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00: ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ??????? ?? ?????? ? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ???????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??????? ?????? ???? ??????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ???????? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ??????? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ???
00: ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??????? ?????? ?????? ? ???? ?????? ???? ???????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ??? ????? ??????
00: ????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ??????? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ???????? ?? ??????? ???????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ??????? ????? ?? ?????? ???????? (?????????) ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ????
00: ?? ????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ?????????? ????????? ?????? ?? ??? 2006 ???? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ??????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?? ????? ????? ?? ?????????? ????????? ?? ?????? ??? ?????? ?? ?????
Segment:6 Q5: "What are your hopes for the field in the next decade?".
00: ?? ????? ???? ??????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?? ?? ??????? ?? ?? ?????????? ?? ??? ?????????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ??????? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ????? ??????? ????????
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00: ?? ?????? ?????? ?????? ...??? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ???????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????????? ??? ????? ?? ???????? ????????? ?? ???????? ???????? ???? ?????? ?? ????????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??????? ???? ??? ??????? ?? ????? ??????
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00: ???? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ?? ??????? ??? ?? ?? ????. ?? ??? ??????? ???? ... ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????????
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00: ??? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???????? ???? ???????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??? ??????? ???? ???????? ??? ? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ?????
00: ??? ??????? ??????? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???????? ?? ??????? ?????? ???? ??????? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??????? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ? ??????? ??????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ??????
00: ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??????? ????????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ??????
00: ????? ??? ??? ??????? ??????? ?? ????? ???? ???????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ????????
00: ????? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??????? ????????? ???? ??????? ????? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ???????
00: ???? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?????????? ????? ?? ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ??????? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??????????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ??????? ???? ???????? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??????
Segment:7 Q6: "What do you see as the implication of your scholarship?".
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Segment:8 Q7: "What do you see as the impact of public scholarship?".
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Segment:9 Conclusion.
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The cadmore media player is a professional video and audio player experience designed to deliver media as well as relevant transcript, segmentation, and metadata. On the screen is a traditional html video player with buttons such as play, pause, forward, captioning, language and play speed selection and more. Adjacent to the video player are generally tabs, one of which shows a scrolling transcript of the video and the other shows any segmentation of the media, sometimes referred to as chapters. At the top of the video is a menu bar containing an Explore button and Tools button. The Explore button allows you to dig deeper into the video by opening up an explore dialog which contains tabs for a visual navigation of the video using thumbnails, an about tab which contains rich metadata about the media, a segments tab which contains further information about the video, and a related tab which contains links to other media related to this media. The tools button opens a menu with options for sharing the media on social media, creating bookmarking links, creating embed codes for your website, generating citations, and more.
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I: Info Menu,
O: Tools Menu
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F: Forward 15,
R: Rewind 15
L: Languages,
P: Playspeed
M: Mute Toggle,
V: Volume Bar
N: Video Only Toggle,
B: Full Screen Toggle
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